<div>Quit stealing my jokes.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Lane<br><br></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:28 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:brunians@brunians.org">brunians@brunians.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div class="Ih2E3d">> Yes, my basic rundown was meant as that.<br><br>> Heck, I even conflated Aristotle with Aquinas very badly at the end.<br><br></div>So did Aquinas, though not necessrily more at the end than the beginning<br>
or middle....<br>
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<div class="Wj3C7c"><br><br><br>.<br><br>> On 12/3/08, Lane Haygood <<a href="mailto:lhaygood@gmail.com">lhaygood@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>>> I'll explicate and clarify this later. What we're really talking about<br>
>> with<br>>> Aristotle requires us to contrast universality of a given idea with<br>>> Plato's<br>>> ideas about universality. I'm just at work and can't write it out at<br>>> the<br>
>> moment.<br>>><br>>> Lane<br>>><br>>><br>>> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 1:12 PM, John Watkins <<a href="mailto:john.watkins04@gmail.com">john.watkins04@gmail.com</a>><br>>> wrote:<br>
>> > Yes, "form" and "anima" mean the same thing here (although not always,<br>>> > because "anima" will sometimes mean "breath" or "soul" when "form"<br>
>> > will not.)<br>>> ><br>>> > Basic Aristotelian metaphysics: entity = form + matter.<br>>> ><br>>> > This is easiest to understand via artifacts. A blacksmith imagines<br>
>> > the form of a sword, then takes matter, steel, and forges it into the<br>>> > sword. The "form," existing in the mind of the blacksmith, becomes<br>>> > instantiated in the matter of the steel. But the substance, the thing<br>
>> > itself, is neither the steel nor the picture in the head of the<br>>> > blacksmith, but their union in the sword.<br>>> ><br>>> > For a living thing, the form is the anima, the life-principle--for<br>
>> > humans, you might call it the mind or the soul. The matter is the<br>>> > body. Severian and Apu-Punchau are the same "form" instantiated, or<br>>> > "written," in different matters. Nevertheless they are distinct<br>
>> > entities.<br>>> ><br>>> ><br>>> ><br>>> ><br>>> > On 12/3/08, Son of Witz <<a href="mailto:sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org">sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>> > ><br>>> > > >-----Original Message-----<br>>> > > >From: John Watkins [mailto:<a href="mailto:john.watkins04@gmail.com">john.watkins04@gmail.com</a>]<br>>> > > >Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 10:42 AM<br>
>> > > >To: 'The Urth Mailing List'<br>>> > > >Subject: Re: (urth) Severian I, Severian II, Severian III,<br>>> Severian<br>>> Ad Nauseum<br>>> > > ><br>>> > > >On 12/3/08, Son of Witz <<a href="mailto:sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org">sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>> > > >> from the perspective of the 4 books proper, there is only really<br>>> one<br>>> Severian body, though that is confused by the tomb. This is why there<br>>> is<br>>> the explosion when he meets Apu Punchau. The Two bodies can't be in the<br>
>> same time because they are one, ala Inire's law of mirrors (so to<br>>> speak).<br>>> > > >><br>>> > > >> Book V, as a Sequel, convolutes the hell out of that simplicity.<br>
>> By<br>>> most readings, we now have to modify Apu Punchau to be this Aquastor<br>>> Tzadkiel made. Now, if Tzadkiel made him a new body and discarded the<br>>> old<br>>> (which I've argued is not necessarily in the text) he does not really<br>
>> run<br>>> the risk of self cancellation when he meets Apu Punchau in the stone<br>>> town.<br>>> Right? If it's a new body, it's NOT subject to that time paradox, I<br>>> don't<br>
>> think. They're not two instances of the same body, unless I'm right<br>>> that<br>>> Tzadkiel just fixed his body and resurrected him into the same one.<br>>> > > >> (that argument here:<br>
>> <a href="http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2008-December/010873.html" target="_blank">http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2008-December/010873.html</a>)<br>>> > > >> So, the self cancellation scene becomes dodgy in light of the<br>
>> sequel,<br>>> unless we realize that what Tzadkiel did is NOT necessarily a new body<br>>> separate from the Author of BoTNS.<br>>> > > >><br>>> > > ><br>>> > > >I don't think the bodies are the problem with Apu Punchau. It's<br>
>> the<br>>> forms.<br>>> > > ><br>>> > > >The Hieros explain that at the end of Urth, I think, with the bit<br>>> > > >about writing the same lines too close together.<br>
>> > > ><br>>> > > >There's a lot of this Aristotelian/Scholastic philosophy dusted<br>>> about<br>>> > > >in the Sun books--think also of Severian's definition of<br>
>> > > >larvae--"masked spirits." Hardly what a modern who's taken a<br>>> semester<br>>> > > >of biology thinks, but absolutely accurate in Aristotelian<br>>> > > >metaphysics.<br>
>> > ><br>>> > ><br>>> > > The form is what the Heirodules call the Anima, no?<br>>> > > the example is of a verse. The Verse would be the Anima, the<br>>> multiple<br>
>> writings in the dust would be the instances that cancel each other out.<br>>> The<br>>> way they explain it is different than the Law of Mirrors cancellation, I<br>>> think.<br>>> > ><br>
>> > > Here's the relevant passage, which does account for why his Aquastor<br>>> would leave a corpse where Malrubius's wouldn't.<br>>> > ><br>>> > > man this shit is really confusing.<br>
>> > ><br>>> > ><br>>> > ><br>>> > > "One further question, illustrious Hierodules, before you return me<br>>> to<br>>> my own period. When I spoke with Master Malrubius beside the sea, he<br>
>> dissolved into a glittering dust. And yet " I could not say it, but my<br>>> eyes<br>>> sought out the corpse.<br>>> > > Barbatus nodded. "That eidolon, as you call them, had been in<br>
>> existence<br>>> only briefly. I don't know what energies Tzadkiel called upon to support<br>>> you<br>>> on the ship; it may even be that you yourself drew the support you<br>>> needed<br>
>> from whatever source was at hand, just as you took power from the ship<br>>> when<br>>> you tried to raise your steward. But even if it was a source you left<br>>> behind<br>>> when you came here, you had lived a long time before that, on the ship,<br>
>> in<br>>> Yesod, on the ship again, in the tender, in Typhon's time, and so on.<br>>> During<br>>> all that time you breathed, ate, and drank matter that was not unstable,<br>>> converting it to your body's use. Thus it became a substantial body."<br>
>> > > "But I'm dead not even here, dead back there on Tzadkiel's ship."<br>>> > > "Your twin lies dead there," Barbatus told me. "As another lies dead<br>>> here. I might say in passing that if he weren't dead, we couldn't have<br>
>> done<br>>> what we did, because every living being is more than mere matter." He<br>>> paused<br>>> and glanced toward Fainulimus for help, but received none. "What do you<br>>> know<br>
>> of the anima?"<br>>> > > I thought then of Ava, and what she had said to me: "You're a<br>>> materialist, like all ignorant people. But your materialism doesn't make<br>>> materialism true." Little Ava had died with Foila and the rest.<br>
>> "Nothing," I<br>>> muttered. "I know nothing of the anima."<br>>> > > "In a way, it's like a line of verse. Famulimus, what was the one<br>>> you<br>>> quoted to me?"<br>
>> > > His wife sang, "Awake! for Morning in the Bowl of Night, Has flung<br>>> the<br>>> Stone that puts the Stars to Flight."<br>>> > > "Yes," I said. "I understand."<br>
>> > > Barbatus pointed. "Suppose I were to write those lines upon that<br>>> wall<br>>> and then to write them again upon that other wall. Which would be the<br>>> true<br>>> lines?"<br>
>> > > "Both," I said. "And neither. The true lines are not writing, nor<br>>> speech<br>>> either. I can't say what they are."<br>>> > > "That is the way of the anima, as I understand it. It was written<br>
>> there." He indicated the dead man. "Now it is written in you. When the<br>>> light<br>>> of the White Fountain touches Urth, it will be written there again. Yet<br>>> the<br>>> anima will not be erased in you by that writing. Unless "<br>
>> > > I waited for him to continue.<br>>> > > Ossipago said, "Unless you come too close. If you write a name in<br>>> the<br>>> dust and retrace it with your finger, there are not two names, but one.<br>
>> If<br>>> two currents flow through a conductor, there is one current."<br>>> > > While I stared in disbelief, Famulimus sang, "You came too near your<br>>> double once, you know; that was here, in this poor town of stones. Then<br>
>> he<br>>> was gone, and only you remained. Our eidolons are always of the dead.<br>>> Have<br>>> you not wondered why? Be warned!"<br>>> > > Barbatus nodded. "But as for our returning you to your own time, we<br>
>> can't help you. Your green man knew more than we, perhaps; or at least<br>>> he<br>>> had more energy at his disposal. We'll leave you food, water, and a<br>>> light;<br>>> but you'll have to wait for the White Fountain. It shouldn't be long, as<br>
>> Famulimus said."<br>>> > > She had begun to fade into the past already, so that her song seemed<br>>> to<br>>> come from far away. "Do not destroy the corpse, Severian. However<br>
>> tempted<br>>> you may be be warned!"<br>>> > > Barbatus and Ossipago had faded while I watched Famulimus. When her<br>>> voice was gone, there was no sound in the House of Apu-Punchau but his<br>
>> own<br>>> faint breath. "<br>>> > ><br>>> > ><br>>> > > _______________________________________________<br>>> > > Urth Mailing List<br>>> > > To post, write <a href="mailto:urth@urth.net">urth@urth.net</a><br>
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