<div>Well, there's no general resurrection and no judgment. It's not clear that there's victory over a demonic power. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>And instead of serving as a genuine Last Day, it's just a hit of the reset button.<br> </div>
<div>Other than that, I guess it's exactly like the Second Coming. Which is to say it's not much like the Second Coming at all.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>It's much more like the Flood.<br> </div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 11/24/08, <b class="gmail_sendername">David Stockhoff</b> <<a href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net">dstockhoff@verizon.net</a>> wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff"><pre>That's it exactly---Severian is the Executioner, or Harvester, of Urth. He dies and is resurrected, but that's a smaller part of his story. Christ will wield a flaming sword, but he hasn't yet, so that's a smaller part of his (so far). We think of him as promising Life, but that is impossible without his own Death; Severian is our Death, but he brings Life.
They are complementary---almost mirror opposites. And yet ... what keeps this story from being a version of the Second Coming?
(The world is lucky Wolfe doesn't want to found a new religion, like a certain other (bad) sci-fi author did. He'd be dangerous!)
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 18:34:45 +0000
From: "Son of Witz" <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org" target="_blank"><sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org></a>
Subject: (urth) Severian / Christ / Logos / Apocatstasis
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Sunday morning I was fried, sort of staring at the bookshelf, and I noticed that "Godel Escher Bach" book-cover Dan'l mentioned. Pondering it, I realized it is very much the perfect sort of illustration of what I'm trying to get at here with the Christological suggestions I've been making.
Here's a link to an online pic if you're not familiar with it:
<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://michaelgr.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/godel-escher-bach-geb.jpg" target="_blank">http://michaelgr.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/godel-escher-bach-geb.jpg</a>
As should be obvious, those different shadows are made by those wacky blocks.
My points about Chris are very much like that. As the story goes, and the pope recently reminded Christ is the LOGOS.
So look at that cover and imagine the complicated strange carved Block as the LOGOS, and it's shadows as our stories and understanding of the Logos. Then perhaps the GE on the left is one mythical take on The Logos, and the EG on the right, a second take, and the B yet another.
The New Testament is one story that deals with the Logos (or that Energy some of us call the Logos), and Book of the New Sun is another such story. While I don't want to equate Wolfe's writing with Divine Revelation, I think it's an apt illustration of the idea. that this Energy we've labeled Christ or Logos is a REAL entity APART from the textual shadows it has cast on the walls of our cave. And different angles of illumination reveal different textual shadows, (such as the Bible or BoTNS )
I just wanted to throw this out as an example of the sort of abstraction from text to principle that I'm trying to get at. I sense a difficulty of abstracting Christ out of his textual story into what that story might be trying to tell us about this (very real, IMO) entity that exists on some incomprehensible level of being.
I came at this abstraction of Christ, via PKD and Valis, so pardon me if it all sounds a bit psychedlic and nutty. In his POV, the pink light that induced his schizophrenia was the healing light-message of the Logos, and it was sent to penetrate and heal the Black Iron Prison. (I don't mean to suggest that Wolfe has a similar gnostic view)
and I do feel that energy right there in my heart, thankfully not as full of a blast as PKD got, but it's there. All my life I shied away from anything Christ related, but once the symbols were mapped out like that, I can accept calling it Christ.
Also,
(and I'm NOT trying to get into a pissing match with you John)
but I feel this is WAY off the mark. from the Guild Secret question:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite"><pre><span>></span>Isn't it likely that the secret of the guild is associated somehow
<span>></span>with the destruction Severian brings as the New Sun? I.e., the secret
<span>></span>is that the Conciliator is a torturer, and that the New Sun means
<span>></span>death?
</pre></blockquote><pre>The New Sun does not mean Death.
It means Rebirth.
though the ugly truth is that there is no life without death.
this meat of this book is the first chapter title "Death and Resurrection"
Sure, it does mean that most living will die, but their path is a dead path anyway, and they are held in barbarism, awaiting the hope of Renewal against the inevitability of Death with Ragnarok.
The characters that cannot seem to accept the notion of personal death for the greater cyclical good are the forces that Oppose the Coming of the New Sun, like the Sorcerers who blind the cock. They can't let go of their personal attachments for the larger good.
I mean, the second coming of Christ will/would be that for many.
Kali, the same, yet she will bring a new golden age.
It may be a platitude at this point, but it is true:
The forest NEEDS the fire to level it periodically or the seeds of renewal will NOT germinate.
Severian's role as a Torturer is KEY here. He is a good man who must obey.
He MUST destroy Urth to bring Ushas. Most of us would NOT be able to do it, and it was clearly very difficult for Severian. Who but a Torturer could obey that fucking mandate? Who can wield the Sword that cuts AND heals?
I feel that when Wolfe mentioned that the writing had to do with the ramifications or consequences of his beliefs, I think he may have been trying to grapple with this aspect of the 2nd coming and Apocatastasis. As such, I find it a beautiful meditation on that dichotomy.
~SonOfWitz
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite"><pre><span>></span>Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant
<span>></span>
<span>></span>The easiest analogy I know is the strangely-carved block on the cover of
<span>></span>Godel
<span>></span>Escher Bach. It is carved so that one side of it <b><span>*</span>IS<span>*</span></b> a G, one side <b><span>*</span>IS<span>*</span></b> an
<span>></span>E, and one
<span>></span>side <b><span>*</span>IS<span>*</span></b> a B, yet they are all one block.
</pre></blockquote><pre>
</pre><br><br><br>
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