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class=625351316-23112008>Sword, ch. 31:</SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN lang=EN-GB
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class=625351316-23112008>"</SPAN>And the secret is only that we torturers obey.
In all the lofty order of the body politic, the pyramid of lives that is
immensely taller than any material tower, taller than the Bell Keep, taller than
the Wall of Nessus, taller than Mount Typhon, the pyramid that stretches from
the Autarch on the Phoenix Throne to the most humble clerk grubbing for the most
dishonorable trader—a creature lower than the lowest beggar—we are the only
sound stone. No one truly obeys unless he will do the unthinkable in obedience;
no one will do the unthinkable save we.<SPAN
class=625351316-23112008>"</SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV><SPAN lang=EN-GB
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class=625351316-23112008>Nessuno</SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN class=625351316-23112008> </SPAN>-----Ursprüngliche
Nachricht-----<BR><B>Von:</B> urth-bounces@lists.urth.net
[mailto:urth-bounces@lists.urth.net]<B>Im Auftrag von </B>Dave
Lebling<BR><B>Gesendet:</B> Sonntag, 23. November 2008 17:03<BR><B>An:</B> The
Urth Mailing List<BR><B>Betreff:</B> Re: (urth) Severian as reverse Christ (or
something)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>The secret that I recall is that of all the
parts of the Commonwealth supposedly subject to the Autarch, the Guild is the
only one that will always obey. At least that is what Severian was told by one
of the Masters.<BR><BR>(I thought it was near the end of Citadel, but I didn't
find it with a cursory search.)<BR><BR>-- Dave Lebling, aka
vizcacha<BR><BR>Craig Brewer wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:911165.63801.qm@web37603.mail.mud.yahoo.com type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Where and when, exactly? I've never been sure if I quite caught what was going on with that. (Am I dense and it's apparent to everyone else?)
----- Original Message ----
From: <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:brunians@brunians.org">"brunians@brunians.org"</A> <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:brunians@brunians.org"><brunians@brunians.org></A>
To: The Urth Mailing List <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net"><urth@lists.urth.net></A>
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 4:35:56 PM
Subject: Re: (urth) Severian as reverse Christ (or something)
Severian certainly does tell the Secret Of The Guild.
.
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">There is, of course, the "secret" of the Guild which Palaemon and Gurloes
tell Severian when he's made journeyman. Some people on the list have,
interestingly enough, speculated that this "secret" is that the Torturer's
Guild used to be the Catholic Church itself. The speculation that they
used to be the Inquisition would fit rather well with that. As far as I
recall, Severian never says anything else about this "secret," although he
does claim to have broken his promise never to tell it.
________________________________
From: Chris <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:rasputin_@hotmail.com"><rasputin_@hotmail.com></A>
To: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net">urth@lists.urth.net</A>
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 2:02:46 PM
Subject: Re: (urth) Severian as reverse Christ (or something)
I don't have any textual basis for this, but I thought of the Torturers
as tracing their lineage back to Typhon. This is sort of the reverse of
your impression; the institution would have started out as secular, and
then acquired its mystical aspects in order to maintain its cohesion over
time.
--
"When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about
to set." -- Lin Yutang
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">From: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org">sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org</A>
To: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net">urth@lists.urth.net</A>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 11:44:16 -0800
Subject: Re: (urth) Severian as reverse Christ (or something)
On Nov 22, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">David Stockhoff wrote:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">In similar vein, discussing "what offices a Christian man may
hold", he refers to a recent case wherein a Church member had the
opportunity to receive high public office as a magistrate.
Tertullian argues that it would be morally impossible for this man
to satisfy both the Gospel's demands and those of Roman law, for
that would require him to abstain not only from all public pagan
sacrifices, oaths, etc., but also from "sitting in judgment on
anyone's life or character, . . . neither condemning nor fore-
condemning; binding no one, imprisoning /or torturing no one/".^*2
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=""><<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt119.html#FN_2">http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt119.html#FN_2</A>
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">* These are the earliest known explicit Christian statements on
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap="">the morality of torture.
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap="">Wolfe may have drawn some ideas from Tertullian, but he surely
wouldn't consider him to be the last word on Christian morality. A
couple of centuries later St. Augustine wrote on the idea of a "just
war," which could be fought by righteous Christian soldiers.
Tertullian ended up being declared a heretic (not about pacificism,
but about whether a new prophecy could have the same force as
scripture).
Tertullian had the luxury in the third century of belonging to a
persucuted group that could stand outside and condemn the system.
But later the Church became the accepted state religion, and took
over a great deal of power in the Middle Ages. At that point,
soldiers, magistrates, and even torturers were at least nominally
Christians. It's a difficult moral dilemma and one that Wolfe
doesn't shrink from presenting in all its horror.
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap="">On that note, I've taken the Torturer's Guild as a sort of Inquisition
that's become a more or less secular institution of the State. As if
the State absorbed them and gradually became more and more ashamed of
the Guild, yet kept it around in diminished form for their dirty work.
but it's lost it's original purpose. Of course that's all
speculation, but it works for me.
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