<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"><div>Ah, thank you guys! This is what I get for jumping back into the conversation with only Sword and Claw fresh in my mind. I think I will, with belated wisdom, keep my ramblings to myself until I finish the whole series again.<br></div><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Nessun Sapra <nessun-sapra@web.de><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> The Urth Mailing List <urth@lists.urth.net><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, November 23, 2008 10:14:37 AM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: (urth)
Severian as reverse Christ (or something)<br></font><br>
<title></title>
<div><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Bookman Old Style';" lang="EN-GB"><span class="625351316-23112008">Sword, ch. 31:</span></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Bookman Old Style';" lang="EN-GB"><span class="625351316-23112008">"</span>And the secret is only that we torturers obey.
In all the lofty order of the body politic, the pyramid of lives that is
immensely taller than any material tower, taller than the Bell Keep, taller than
the Wall of Nessus, taller than Mount Typhon, the pyramid that stretches from
the Autarch on the Phoenix Throne to the most humble clerk grubbing for the most
dishonorable trader—a creature lower than the lowest beggar—we are the only
sound stone. No one truly obeys unless he will do the unthinkable in obedience;
no one will do the unthinkable save we.<span class="625351316-23112008">"</span></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Bookman Old Style';" lang="EN-GB"><span class="625351316-23112008"></span></span> </div>
<div><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Bookman Old Style';" lang="EN-GB"><span class="625351316-23112008">Nessuno</span></span></div>
<blockquote dir="ltr" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span class="625351316-23112008"><font size="3" color="#0000ff" face="Bookman Old Style"> </font></span></font></div>
<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span class="625351316-23112008"> </span>-----Ursprüngliche
Nachricht-----<br><b>Von:</b> urth-bounces@lists.urth.net
[mailto:urth-bounces@lists.urth.net]<b>Im Auftrag von </b>Dave
Lebling<br><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag, 23. November 2008 17:03<br><b>An:</b> The
Urth Mailing List<br><b>Betreff:</b> Re: (urth) Severian as reverse Christ (or
something)<br><br></font></div><font size="2" face="Tahoma"></font>The secret that I recall is that of all the
parts of the Commonwealth supposedly subject to the Autarch, the Guild is the
only one that will always obey. At least that is what Severian was told by one
of the Masters.<br><br>(I thought it was near the end of Citadel, but I didn't
find it with a cursory search.)<br><br>-- Dave Lebling, aka
vizcacha<br><br>Craig Brewer wrote:
<blockquote type="cite"><pre>Where and when, exactly? I've never been sure if I quite caught what was going on with that. (Am I dense and it's apparent to everyone else?)<br><br><br><br>----- Original Message ----<br>From: <a rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto="mailto:brunians@brunians.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:brunians@brunians.org">"brunians@brunians.org"</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto="mailto:brunians@brunians.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:brunians@brunians.org"><brunians@brunians.org></a>
To: The Urth Mailing List <a rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net"><urth@lists.urth.net></a>
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 4:35:56 PM
Subject: Re: (urth) Severian as reverse Christ (or something)
Severian certainly does tell the Secret Of The Guild.
.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite"><pre>There is, of course, the "secret" of the Guild which Palaemon and Gurloes<br>tell Severian when he's made journeyman. Some people on the list have,<br>interestingly enough, speculated that this "secret" is that the Torturer's<br>Guild used to be the Catholic Church itself. The speculation that they<br>used to be the Inquisition would fit rather well with that. As far as I<br>recall, Severian never says anything else about this "secret," although he<br>does claim to have broken his promise never to tell it.<br><br><br><br><br>________________________________<br>From: Chris <a rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto="mailto:rasputin_@hotmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:rasputin_@hotmail.com"><rasputin_@hotmail.com></a>
To: <a rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net">urth@lists.urth.net</a>
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 2:02:46 PM
Subject: Re: (urth) Severian as reverse Christ (or something)
I don't have any textual basis for this, but I thought of the Torturers
as tracing their lineage back to Typhon. This is sort of the reverse of
your impression; the institution would have started out as secular, and
then acquired its mystical aspects in order to maintain its cohesion over
time.
--
"When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about
to set." -- Lin Yutang
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite"><pre>From: <a rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org">sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org</a>
To: <a rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net">urth@lists.urth.net</a>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 11:44:16 -0800
Subject: Re: (urth) Severian as reverse Christ (or something)
On Nov 22, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite"><pre>David Stockhoff wrote:<br> </pre>
<blockquote type="cite"><pre>In similar vein, discussing "what offices a Christian man may<br>hold", he refers to a recent case wherein a Church member had the<br>opportunity to receive high public office as a magistrate.<br>Tertullian argues that it would be morally impossible for this man<br>to satisfy both the Gospel's demands and those of Roman law, for<br>that would require him to abstain not only from all public pagan<br>sacrifices, oaths, etc., but also from "sitting in judgment on<br>anyone's life or character, . . . neither condemning nor fore-<br>condemning; binding no one, imprisoning /or torturing no one/".^*2<br> </pre></blockquote></blockquote><pre><<a rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" target="_blank" href="http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt119.html#FN_2">http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt119.html#FN_2</a>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><pre>* These are the earliest known explicit Christian statements on<br> </pre></blockquote><pre>the morality of torture.<br><br> </pre></blockquote><pre>Wolfe may have drawn some ideas from Tertullian, but he surely<br>wouldn't consider him to be the last word on Christian morality. A<br>couple of centuries later St. Augustine wrote on the idea of a "just<br>war," which could be fought by righteous Christian soldiers.<br>Tertullian ended up being declared a heretic (not about pacificism,<br>but about whether a new prophecy could have the same force as<br>scripture).<br><br>Tertullian had the luxury in the third century of belonging to a<br>persucuted group that could stand outside and condemn the system.<br>But later the Church became the accepted state religion, and took<br>over a great deal of power in the Middle Ages. At that point,<br>soldiers, magistrates, and even torturers were at least
nominally<br>Christians. It's a difficult moral dilemma and one that Wolfe<br>doesn't shrink from presenting in all its horror.<br> </pre></blockquote><pre>On that note, I've taken the Torturer's Guild as a sort of Inquisition<br>that's become a more or less secular institution of the State. As if<br>the State absorbed them and gradually became more and more ashamed of<br>the Guild, yet kept it around in diminished form for their dirty work.<br>but it's lost it's original purpose. Of course that's all<br>speculation, but it works for me.<br>_______________________________________________<br>Urth Mailing List<br>To post, write <a rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:urth@urth.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:urth@urth.net">urth@urth.net</a>
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</pre></blockquote></blockquote></div></div></div><br>
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