I'm a long time Lurker/first time poster, so, I'll begin with the requisite apologies for form here.<br>I beg forgiveness in advance.<br><br>I can claim responsibility for unleashing SonOfWitz on this board, as I introduced him to the books,<br>
and am pleased to have found such an erudite companion in my enjoyment of these masterworks.<br><br>Anyway, this is such a fascinating discussion. I feel I have something to add here, and hopefully<br>can do so in a coherent fashion.<br>
<br>First off, I think it's fairly safe to say that Severian IS the Conciliator, no? I mean, Urth establishes that<br>without doubt in my mind. Now, of course, that is in the historical sense. He is the origin of the Conciliator <br>
mythos in Severians original time (Guild years). The myth has taken on dimensions of its own, of course.<br><br>One important thing to think about, for me, in regards to this is that the Conciliator is Severian after he has gone<br>
through all of the events in BotNS and most of UotNS. The actions and character of the Conciliator are<br>a direct result of the experiences of Severian in BotNS.<br><br>Why does this matter? Well, when it comes to this issue of whether Sev's life is manipulated to the degree<br>
that it's inevitable that he become the New Sun, or whether it is more a matter of a man trying to make the choice of good<br>in a world gone bad, which eventually leads to him becoming the New Sun, I don't think we need look at these two things as<br>
incompatible.<br><br>It seems undeniable to me that there are forces working in favor and in opposition to Severian as the New Sun, from the very<br>beginning. However, Sev himself is unaware of these forces, largely, for most of the books. At every turn, when confroted<br>
with a situation, he has to make his choices out of his own character. I don't think you can argue that his choices, or<br>his moral character and direction are in anyones control. But, many of the events he encounters are manipulations. Many, but not all. <br>
Did anyone engineer his meeting with Typhon? Probably not. Does it fit the archytype of a Christ figure? Certainly. On that level,<br>one can almost sense two or three levels of 'manipulation' here (without turning to the most obvious manipulation: that of the<br>
author wanting to make a point about Christ). On the one hand, figures like Inire and the Hierodules, or Baldanders and the forces of<br>Abaia/Erebus are constantly meddling in Severians journey trying to lead him in one or the other direction. That is, in a very lofty sense, <br>
still on the level of the Ploughman's meaning. Yet, as the Angel in the story of the Cock and the Angel admits, even he is infinitely far from<br>understanding the will of the Increate. So, the increates hand can be here in shaping the events of Sev's life, with such<br>
archtypal and NECESSARY events such as the meeting with Typhon, aka the temptation of Sev on the mount. This becomes even<br>more interesting to me when you think that the Conciliators confrontation with Typhon, which is mythic and cathartic for all of Urth, could<br>
not have happened without this first (for Sevs timeline) confrontation with Typhon, which in Urth's timeline actually comes second.<br>The Conciliator could not have shaped the destiny of earth, or reconciled man with the increate, without all of these important and<br>
archytypal events which happen to Severian in BotNS. There is something very important, for me, in recognizing that Sev's journey in<br>BotNS not only tests and prepares him to be the New Sun, but also the Conciliator. It's all to easy to keep thinking of the Conciliator as prior to Severian, <br>
when in fact, he is the relust of the events in the New Sun.<br><br>In this sense, Severian becomes much much more than just a man who finds good in himself in a world of evil, and is found to be worthy of being the New Sun,<br>
he becomes a real agent of the increate by following an archtypal path in which even the enemies of the increate ultimatley serve his purpose by <br>providing the needed events in Severians life to shape his character and create in him the Conciliator, and even Apu Pinchau. Severian in a very real sense<br>
shapes the world he comes to be born in, and the entire future of Urth (not even considering here the flood.)<br><br>I don't see that there has to be a conflict in the idea of a 'good' man who makes his choices in a world gone bad, ultimately becoming the New Sun of his<br>
own free will, while at the same time having his journey 'manipulated' by both ploughmans and trancendental forces, which help to develop<br>his inherent character in such a way that the agreggate of the choices he makes eventually makes of him the Conciliator.<br>
<br>I don't know that I've said this as well as I want to. Perhaps later I can parse it out better.<br><br>Also, I know I'm saying nothing new! :)<br><br><br>-Jordon<br><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Son of Witz <<a href="mailto:sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org">sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org</a>><br>To: The Urth Mailing List <<a href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net">urth@lists.urth.net</a>><br>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:26:30 -0800<br>Subject: Re: (urth) Severian as reverse Christ (or something)<br>by the way,<br>
this Reverse Christ bit, while funny, has nothing to do with my views.<br>
I'm NOT talking about an antichrist.<br>
just to be clear.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
but it did make me laugh<br>
:)<br>
<br>
<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Craig Brewer <<a href="mailto:cnbrewer@yahoo.com">cnbrewer@yahoo.com</a>><br>To: The Urth Mailing List <<a href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net">urth@lists.urth.net</a>><br>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:10:26 -0800 (PST)<br>Subject: Re: (urth) Severian as reverse Christ (or something)<br>Son of Witz,<br>
<br>
I think our difference may have less to do with "ethics" or "religion"<br>
and more to do with how we see the symbols operating in the book.<br>
You're absolutely correct that Severian is covered with Christ imagery<br>
and is often related to the Conciliator. In other words, I agree with<br>
every citation you made in that post. (Which, by the way, I saved<br>
because you pointed to most of the good stuff...nice to have all that<br>
in one place.)<br>
<br>
Our difference seems to be how we understand<br>
those symbols to operate. To me, they stay figurative, i.e.,<br>
non-literal, even WITHIN the plot. Severian's role in the plot<br>
essentially carries out, in literal terms, the trajectory of what the<br>
Conciliator represented symbolically. But does that mean that Severian<br>
*is* the Conciliator who, at least according to Urth's legends, was a<br>
divine figure? Or does he do in a "worldly" sense what the Conciliator<br>
did in a "supernatural" sense?<br>
<br>
I've never been convinced that<br>
Urth of the New Sun proves that there was anything supernatural about<br>
Severian. Another way to put it is that there was plenty there that was<br>
"science fiction-y" but not "fantasy," if we take "fantasy" here to<br>
mean supernatural. One can construe the plot in completely<br>
"science-fiction"-y terms that don't rely on divinity at all: The<br>
Hieros created a situation in which humans would evolve to a point<br>
where they, the humans, would create the Hieros (who live backwards in<br>
time...and here I take it that time travel and time weirdness isn't<br>
necessarily a "divine" thing). Bringing about the New Sun is one<br>
complicated pre-requisite for that, and the Hieros needed to know that<br>
humanity was ready, so they tested various "Severians" that they'd<br>
engineered. Our Severian happens to be the best, and so he "saves"<br>
humanity by convincing the Hieros that it's time to dump that<br>
white-hole back into the sun and change the course of human history. (Pardon my likely faulty summary here...it's off the cuff and, admittedly, been at least a year since I last read _Urth_.)<br>
<br>
Now,<br>
nowhere in all of that does Severian have to be divine. What he<br>
certainly *is* is living out a story that, in metaphor, tells a story<br>
of humanity's supernatural salvation. But I take it as something very<br>
similar to Silk's epiphany: Silk had a single moment of divine insight,<br>
but everything that happened afterward, while it followed a divine<br>
symbolism, did not actually have supernatural consequences. Learning<br>
the truth did not bring Silk to heaven...it just got him out of the Whorl.<br>
So there were two transcendences: the real one was also the most<br>
symbolic, as in Silk being granted truth from the Outsider. The<br>
transcendence of the story was "worldly", though: he led the people<br>
from their prison in the Whorl and their false gods to something better.<br>
<br>
So<br>
did Severian have to be divine, within the context of the story, to be<br>
the New Sun? Or was he doing, in a "worldly" sense, what the<br>
Conciliator did, or was supposed to have done, in a divine sense?<br>
<br>
I<br>
have to say that your talk about the LOGOS might in the end be a way of<br>
not having to make the divine/worldly distinction I'm hung up on. And,<br>
for that, I've got to say thanks. (And, to be honest, the more I push this distinction, the less sure I am it's appropriate.)<br>
<br>
Craig<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Son of Witz <<a href="mailto:sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org">sonofwitz@butcherbaker.org</a>><br>To: The Urth Mailing List <<a href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net">urth@lists.urth.net</a>><br>
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:00:58 -0800<br>Subject: Re: (urth) Severian as reverse Christ (or something)<br><div style=""><div>Craig,</div><div>First of all, let me say that I do agree with your ideas here.</div><div>everything you put works within the confines of the story. I think your reading is valid and apt.</div>
<div><br></div><div>however, I feel they fall roughly into the category of "plowman's meaning"</div><div>do you remember the 3 meanings bit? if not I'll dig up the text (I found txt docs online for searching. I'm a geek, I freely admit)</div>
<div>anyway, The cow by the road is chewing grass. the cow is real, the grass is real. the chewing is real.</div><div>all of the religious imagery is cloaked in at least one layer of scifi disguise.</div><div><br></div><div>
(I'll admit here that I've not read much sci fi OR scripture for that matter. I'd add, Thank God Wolfe cloaked his SciFi in many layers of dusty medieval trappings.)</div><div><br></div><div>The single best post I've found on the Urth list falls roughly into the "Soothsayer's meaning". it speaks about the world around us, ourselves and the connections between us.</div>
<div><a href="http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0011/0069.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0011/0069.shtml</a></div><div>which can more or less be summed up with this excerpt: </div><div>"the first 3 and a half books seem to deal with the theme of Severian becoming his own man and casting off other authorities' hold on him. Every authority that is, except that of the Increate."</div>
<div><br></div><div>and it's here that just about everyone is right about Severian. He's Christ-LIKE. He's picked up the cross and tried to become a good man doing the will of God.</div><div>He's shaking off false authorities: Guild, Typhon, Teenage Rebellion (vodalus), Autarch (father figure) etc.</div>
<div>he's also defeating Foes of God: Baldanders (storming the heavens, prometheus, Omega Point), Sorcerers (dark arts aimed at denying God), Zooanthropes (those who would consciously abandon their duty to become fully human), Ascian (godless communists), etc.</div>
<div>He reforms the guild and generally demonstrates mercy at all times when he has a choice.</div><div><br></div><div>Great stuff that does not yet put him into the divine category.</div><div>All these interpretations are very much there in the symbols, and are as true as the straightforward plot elements.</div>
<div>It's at this level of meaning that the thing gets really interesting to me. I didn't really like the books plotting all that much until I started getting a whiff of this. (I loved the writing though)</div><div>
<br></div><div>Most of the stuff I'm arguing for falls into the "Transcendental meaning"</div><div>and I think I've argued those points fairly well, so I won't repeat it here.</div><div>but it's at this level that it becomes a great story for me.</div>
<div>but that's probably just me. I've always gravitated to the abstract mystic side of spiritual matters. </div><div>it's no surprise that most people don't because it's been almost bred out of us, and Religion has shunted this stuff into the corners with the Sufis, Qabalists, and Gnostics.</div>
<div>the sorts of things that resonate with me about Religion and Christianity in particular aren't for most people. (I'm NOT saying I'm wise and elite and better, understand me please)</div><div>it's just that notions of sin and guilt mean nothing to me. But the idea of being both Human(mundane) and Divine, crucified on the crossroads of Time and Eternity (Kronos x Kairos) speaks DIRECTLY to what I feel in my soul in every moment of every day. that crossroads is more or less at Christ's heart, not his brain, and most Christian doctrine is from the heart.</div>
<div>That sort of notion is impractical to most people, so a different reading is more useful to them. </div><div>but my heart explodes when I come to understand Christ as ALL MANKIND in that situation, which we all ARE.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Now I've also had my doses of Armageddon fever. (it's been going around a lot this decade, if you haven't noticed). Millennialism.</div><div>I think humanity is on a suicidal course in many ways and I have little faith in us. sometimes I only find hope in the notion of Apocatastasis. RESET. Wipe the slate clean. start over.</div>
<div>We're in Kali Yuga, and she'll be coming with that flaming sword any day I suppose. It will be flaming death for most of us, but a new Golden Age will be reborn.</div><div>So I take the Story of Severian being the bearer of the Sword that Cuts and the Sword that Heals very much to heart. The deluge of Earth becomes the baptism of Ushas.</div>
<div><br></div><div>If I've sounded like I've been scoffing in my posts, it's because I do find it sort of strange to prefer the mundane answers.</div><div>I mean, who the hell cares who Severa is if it doesn't speak to anything besides plotting?</div>
<div>It's nothing personal to anyone here. I'm thrilled that people are excited about these books and parsing them out so thoroughly.</div><div>If my propositions are thorny, well, they should be. People look at everything to literally. it's a curse in the age of Mythbusters. That "Myth" means "false legend" to most people is a TRAVESTY.</div>
<div>but I mean any provocative comments in the best spirit and I hate to think I offend or step on anyones toes.</div><div><br></div><div>and since I probably have stepped on some toes, I'll say that I just now realized the quest for Catherine is very interesting in light of the notion of Goddess or Mother of God.</div>
<div>I don't know much about it, but humanity was evidently Goddess worshipping for a long time, and that stuff is like a lost mystery. If I'm not mistaken Allat, a Goddess was worshipped before Allah, and she is preserved in the emblem of Islam in the Crescent moon. As far as I've heard the Church tried to minimize the role of Mary, but people would not stop celebrating and worshiping the Mother of God. (and well they shouldn't I suppose). So perhaps Wolfe's obfuscation of Catherine is meant to speak to this Missing or Lost Mother Goddess figure. Her identity is NOT the mystery, it would seem, but what her Absence implies that becomes interesting. </div>
<div><br></div><div>anyway, I ramble on.</div><div>thanks for engaging my ideas, Craig.</div><div><br></div><div>~Witz</div><div><br></div><div><div>On Nov 20, 2008, at 11:10 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite">
<div>Son of Witz,<br><br>I think our difference may have less to do with "ethics" or "religion"<br>and more to do with how we see the symbols operating in the book.<br>You're absolutely correct that Severian is covered with Christ imagery<br>
and is often related to the Conciliator. In other words, I agree with<br>every citation you made in that post. (Which, by the way, I saved<br>because you pointed to most of the good stuff...nice to have all that<br>in one place.)<br>
<br>Our difference seems to be how we understand<br>those symbols to operate. To me, they stay figurative, i.e.,<br>non-literal, even WITHIN the plot. Severian's role in the plot<br>essentially carries out, in literal terms, the trajectory of what the<br>
Conciliator represented symbolically. But does that mean that Severian<br>*is* the Conciliator who, at least according to Urth's legends, was a<br>divine figure? Or does he do in a "worldly" sense what the Conciliator<br>
did in a "supernatural" sense?<br><br>I've never been convinced that<br>Urth of the New Sun proves that there was anything supernatural about<br>Severian. Another way to put it is that there was plenty there that was<br>
"science fiction-y" but not "fantasy," if we take "fantasy" here to<br>mean supernatural. One can construe the plot in completely<br>"science-fiction"-y terms that don't rely on divinity at all: The<br>
Hieros created a situation in which humans would evolve to a point<br>where they, the humans, would create the Hieros (who live backwards in<br>time...and here I take it that time travel and time weirdness isn't<br>necessarily a "divine" thing). Bringing about the New Sun is one<br>
complicated pre-requisite for that, and the Hieros needed to know that<br>humanity was ready, so they tested various "Severians" that they'd<br>engineered. Our Severian happens to be the best, and so he "saves"<br>
humanity by convincing the Hieros that it's time to dump that<br>white-hole back into the sun and change the course of human history. (Pardon my likely faulty summary here...it's off the cuff and, admittedly, been at least a year since I last read _Urth_.)<br>
<br>Now,<br>nowhere in all of that does Severian have to be divine. What he<br>certainly *is* is living out a story that, in metaphor, tells a story<br>of humanity's supernatural salvation. But I take it as something very<br>
similar to Silk's epiphany: Silk had a single moment of divine insight,<br>but everything that happened afterward, while it followed a divine<br>symbolism, did not actually have supernatural consequences. Learning<br>
the truth did not bring Silk to heaven...it just got him out of the Whorl.<br>So there were two transcendences: the real one was also the most<br>symbolic, as in Silk being granted truth from the Outsider. The<br>transcendence of the story was "worldly", though: he led the people<br>
from their prison in the Whorl and their false gods to something better.<br><br>So<br>did Severian have to be divine, within the context of the story, to be<br>the New Sun? Or was he doing, in a "worldly" sense, what the<br>
Conciliator did, or was supposed to have done, in a divine sense?<br><br>I<br>have to say that your talk about the LOGOS might in the end be a way of<br>not having to make the divine/worldly distinction I'm hung up on. And,<br>
for that, I've got to say thanks. (And, to be honest, the more I push this distinction, the less sure I am it's appropriate.)<br><br>Craig<br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Urth Mailing List<br>
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<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: David Stockhoff <<a href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net">dstockhoff@verizon.net</a>><br>To: <a href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net">urth@lists.urth.net</a><br>Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 08:16:09 -0500<br>
Subject: (urth) Severian as reverse Christ (or something)<br>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
My attempt at clarification may have gotten lost because I mistitled my
second post. I'll try one more time. <br>
<br>
I've read very little about Wolfe, or Wolfe's ideas about Wolfe, or
other people's ideas about Wolfe---I have only read all of Wolfe. So I
am happy to be corrected or told that I don't have a new idea. I'll
assert it more forcefully this time:<br>
<br>
Tertullian is a direct source of the character Severian. (See the
footnotes I added below.)<br>
<br>
Wolfe did not come up with a torturer Christ (and let's face it, Christ
is a fictional character, so it makes little difference whether
Severian IS or IS NOT "Christ" although it makes for an interesting
discussion) because he was reading Hannah Arendt about the banality of
evil, or about the Nuremburg trials, or the crimes of Beria or Stalin
or Tiberius or whoever. He came up with the torturer Christ in part
because he read these passages of Tertullian.<br>
<br>
That is my theory and it is mine. (Wish I knew how to apply formatting.)<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
<pre>*A1. Tertullian (3rd century).* This early representative of patristic
thought follows the radically pacifist tendency of not a few Christians at
that time who tended to take the Gospel's 'counsels of perfection' as
universally binding precepts. Certainly, in Tertullian's judgment, any
complicity in torture ? either ordering it or personally applying it ? is
definitely ruled out for a disciple of Jesus. Arguing that no soldier, after
converting to Christianity, should continue in the army, especially given
its pagan character, he asks rhetorically,
"[S]hall the son of peace take part in the battle when it does not become
him even to sue at law? And shall *he* apply the chain, and the prison, *and
the torture*, and the punishment, who is not the avenger even of his own
wrongs?"*1
In similar vein, discussing "what offices a Christian man may hold", he
refers to a recent case wherein a Church member had the opportunity to
receive high public office as a magistrate. Tertullian argues that it would
be morally impossible for this man to satisfy both the Gospel's demands and
those of Roman law, for that would require him to abstain not only from all
public pagan sacrifices, oaths, etc., but also from "sitting in judgment on
anyone's life or character, . . . neither condemning nor fore-condemning;
binding no one, imprisoning *or torturing no one*".*2
* These are the earliest known explicit Christian statements on the
morality of torture.
</pre>
<p><a name="11dbf316c521bbfe_FN_1">1. <i>De Corona,</i> 11, emphasis added.</a></p>
<p><a name="11dbf316c521bbfe_FN_2">2. <i>De Idololatria</i>, 17, emphasis
added.</a></p>
<pre></pre>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:15:08 -0500
From: David Stockhoff <a href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net" target="_blank"><dstockhoff@verizon.net></a>
Subject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 51, Issue 44
To: <a href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net" target="_blank">urth@lists.urth.net</a>
Message-ID: <a href="mailto:4925D35C.1040409@verizon.net" target="_blank"><4925D35C.1040409@verizon.net></a>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
Let me clarify my thought.
I meant that it's almost as though Wolfe read Tertullian (or the debate
he was part of) and and responded to him by deliberately constructing a
character according to those severe Christian prohibitions /as though
they were precise specifications/: a Christ figure who is everything
Christ's followers cannot be. Why these specifications and not others?
I think this goes beyond "sin" and repugnance, neither of which is
mentioned here. It's a question of temporal authority vs spiritual
authority, at least. But we knew that.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>------------------------------
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote>
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