<div><span class="gmail_quote">I think Wolfe's point is deeper than merely "evil actions can produce good results." There's a significant difference from the fate of, for example, Gollum in the Lord of the Rings, who does evil things which lead to good results, and the fate of Kypris or Quetzal, whose evil is, to some degree, masquerading as good. In the Urth cycle, evil that masquerades as good winds up becoming good to some degree--not just accidently having a good result, but changing internally to reflect the good that it imitates. This change isn't absolute--Quetzal still picks Green (although possibly that was a ploy to get them to Blue) and still drinks blood to survive. But it is significant. </span></div>
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<div><span class="gmail_quote">At least, that's the sense I get from the juxtaposition of "time turns our lies into truths" and "When a demon mimics a god, it can not help in some ways becoming like a god." I would be surprised, with the significance this theme has in the Long Sun, with Quetzal and Kypris, and in the Short Sun, with the merger of the demonic Pas with the personality of the saintly Silk, if this same theme has no bearing on the New Sun. </span></div>
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<div><span class="gmail_quote">This does not mean that I think the Hierogrammates are properly understood as archangels. Despite the name, Tzadkiel seems more sinister than that, and the scheme--genocide to further evolution--seems very morally problematic. But, again, I'd be surprised if the presumably evil Hierogrammates posing as presumably good angelic beings has no significance other than messing with our and Severian's assumptions. There's got to be something more going on than evil aliens manipulating Severian to bring about devastation--I just don't know what it is. </span></div>
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<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 7/14/08, <b class="gmail_sendername">Paul B</b> <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:pb.stuff@gmail.com" target="_blank">pb.stuff@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Okay, but then you're simply saying that evil actions can produce good results. That is a truism which doesn't help determine the morality of the Hierogrammates' actions, which is what we're after.<br>
I'm certainly willing to concede that some good came of what they did, but that does nothing to excuse the Hierogrammates.<br><span><br>Paul</span>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 1:58 PM, John Watkins <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:john.watkins04@gmail.com" target="_blank">john.watkins04@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
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<div><span class="gmail_quote">I don't think it means anything like the idea that everything is part of God's plan and thus morality is meaningless. I think it means something much more mundane--that, as Severian himself notes "time turns our lies into truths." In an even less poetic phrasing, habituation works--we become the thing we discipline ourself to feign being because that's how character is shaped. </span></div>
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<div><span class="gmail_quote">When the lie in question is that we speak for the divine, habituation and the Increate together act to annex our actions. For Patera Quetzal, a bloodsucking alien pretending to be a kindly old priest, this meant that he called off the human sacrifices and generally operated as a strong and faithful leader for his flock. For Kypris, and arguably even for Pas, it means that the sham religion of the Whorl is still operating to some degree to further the Outsider's ends. </span></div>
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<div><span class="gmail_quote">I</span><span class="gmail_quote">'m suggesting that a similar explanation could be at work behind the plans of the Hierogrammates, although in a more opaque manner. I am not suggesting that there is no basis for judging the actions of the Hierogrammates--their part in a divine plan could be necessary but completely unwitting. </span></div>
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