True, I'm curious about that myself! It seems evidence tying them to the Increate is hard to come by in the text, though at least they do mention it, though perhaps somewhat unusually ("Urth's agonies will be offered to the Increate" or something to that effect). <br>
<br>Paul<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 2:47 AM, <<a href="mailto:thalassocrat@nym.hush.com">thalassocrat@nym.hush.com</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
<br>
On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:58:53 -0400 "Roy C. Lackey"<br>
<<a href="mailto:rclackey@stic.net">rclackey@stic.net</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>Wolfe shows the Hierogrammates to have their own self-serving<br>
>agenda. He<br>
>shows them as powers above the stage manipulating events on Urth,<br>
>and their<br>
>intentions to continue manipulating the humans of Ushas to achieve<br>
<br>
>their<br>
>desired, and acknowledged, ends. It's too much to quote it all<br>
>here, but it<br>
>is right there in black and white in the dialogue Severian had<br>
>with Apheta<br>
>immediately after the fight with the sailors. In order to achieve<br>
>their<br>
>goals, the Hierogrammates will have to do unto humans exactly what<br>
<br>
>the<br>
>Hieros had done unto them in another universe. As Sev said to<br>
>Gunnie then,<br>
>"That's their justice, their whole reason for being. They bring us<br>
<br>
>through<br>
>the pain we brought them through."<br>
><br>
>If the Hieros of that other universe sinned by cruelly fashioning<br>
>the<br>
>Hierogrammates (which seems to be axiomatic in the Urth Cycle),<br>
>then the<br>
>Hierogrammates will be guilty of the exact same sin in Briah, and<br>
>will start<br>
>the whole ugly cycle all over again. The morality of the actions<br>
>of<br>
>self-serving creatures of Man's creation is not above the reproach<br>
<br>
>of any<br>
>man.<br>
><br>
>One's having power that is greater than another does not define<br>
>morality.<br>
<br>
Given all this, I still can't figure out why you believe that the<br>
Hierogrammates are working directly for the Increate. They weren't<br>
created directly by him; they display no apparent superiority to<br>
man apart from wielding greater power; their explicit agenda is<br>
entirely self-serving with no hint of holiness or whatever. And so<br>
on ...<br>
<br>
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</blockquote></div><br>