I see we haven't moved much farther. <br><br>Firstly, I would suggest that you stop calling the Hierogrammates "angels". They are created by humans (Hieros), and you have yet to provide convincing evidence of their ties to anything godly. Superior knowledge alone is certainly no such evidence (see Baldanders).<br>
<br>Secondly, denying their godliness doesn't make one a "secular humanist". It makes one a skeptical reader who doesn't add what he pleases to the text.<br><br>Finally, you seem to insist that knowledge and morality are proportional. God knows all, the Hierogrammates know less, the average Urthlings don't know very much, and an arctother knows even less than that. This you insist makes the Urthlings unable to morally judge the Hierogrammates, just as the arctother can't judge the Urthlings.<br>
<br>Even the Hierogrammates, however, are still making probabilistic guesses, as Roy's UotNS quote proves handily. Your system of "morality" thus suggests that whoever can make the most informed guess in a closed system is the moral superior and not to be challenged.<br>
<br>Now again consider Baldanders, likely the most knowledgeable, and incidentally one of the more immoral, human characters on Urth. I presume you'll balk at the idea that he's the superior moral agent on all of Urth, but I'll look forward to your explanation why this isn't the case given the morality you advocate.<br>
<br>Paul<br><br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 2:11 PM, b sharp <<a href="mailto:bsharporflat@hotmail.com">bsharporflat@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
Lane, I think we do agree that capacity for moral judgement and capacity for moral<br>
behavior are different. But I think they are more related than you do. It seems to<br>
me that greater capacity for moral judgement confers greater moral responsiblity.<br>
Thus animals are generally considered amoral (perhaps with the excpetion of rogue<br>
elephants or trained tigers who turn on their trainers, thus breaking an established<br>
moral code?). A small child who shoots and kills someone is not to blame, etc. A<br>
white collar embezzler who steals from millionaires is going to prison.<br>
<br>
The more you know, the better you are expected to act and the worse you are when<br>
you transgress. Thus, Hierogrammates, or angels must be expected to be far more<br>
moral than humans. A human murderer is a bad guy but a fallen angel or demon<br>
(or megatherian?) is evil incarnate for ignoring God's commands, mating with humans,<br>
starting trouble on earth etc. They are supposed to know better.<br>
<br>
Going back to my example from a previous post, we can't expect Hierogrammates to<br>
follow human morality any more than a human could be expected to follow gorilla society<br>
morality, whatever that might be. Hierogrammates seem comfortable with genocide, as<br>
long as there is consent from a representative who manages to pass some incomprehensible<br>
test. The Old Testament God didn't even bother with consent before the flood; just the ark<br>
was needed.<br>
<br>
I get the impression there are those here who argue that genocide is always wrong, under all<br>
circumstances and it doesn't matter what degree of foresight the perpetrator has, genocide is<br>
always just plain EVIL. This is a very anthropocentric view but perhaps Justified. Given that<br>
we don't seem to have any direct contact with superior beings at this time, perhaps a secular<br>
humanist view is superior to the religious view which grants superior morality to God and His<br>
agents.<br>
<br>
But, since we are dealing with a work of fiction I'll continue to play Angel's Advocate. I'll again<br>
state that we are unqualified to judge Hierogrammates and their actions because we don't have<br>
the depth and breadth of foresight to do so. Since Genesis is invoked I have to think that Wolfe<br>
has put fallen Hierogrammates in his story who have corrupted Urth and humanity and only drastic<br>
action by good, unfallen angels can provide salvation. Game wardens. Eliminating the diseased<br>
portion of a population so the healthy remainder has a chance to recover and re-populate.<br>
<br>
So, as Angel's Advocate I am the gorilla trying to convince his fellows that the game warden is good<br>
because he is chasing away the poachers who kill us. And the anti-genocide secular humanists are<br>
the other gorillas who say, "it doesn't matter; not in the slightest. No matter how many of our lives<br>
are saved. Anyone who invades our territory with noisy metal boxes is EVIL"<br>
<br>
I commend Lane who explained much better than I can why genocide might not be considered evil<br>
by superhuman beings:<br>
<br>
>But consider the Hieros. They aren't so bound to live life in one<br>
>direction, and indeed, may experience time and cause-effect in<br>
>_reverse_. For humans, then, we judge death, even the deaths of<br>
>millions, to be immoral or bad because we, bound up as we are in our<br>
>linear thinking, cannot conceive that there might be something truly<br>
>_after_ death. I think that most people hope for an afterlife, but<br>
>none of us really knows, in the true sense of knowledge, that there is<br>
>such a thing.<br>
<br>
-bsharp<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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