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<P><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma,sans-serif">I think your post is beautiful, Chris. I also think I have had to coalesce? codify? some of my own thoughts because of what I perceived were inconsequential criticisms others have made.(Able was a punk, Idnn was selfishly selfserving) There was a knight like Ravd, or like I think Able is on the path to becoming. His name was Guillaume le Marechal and most of his life was in the 13th century. He entered a tournament at the age of 17 and won it. It was not an accident. He never lost a personal contest of arms after that. He gave allegiance to Henry II's eldest son and then supported him in his rebellion against his father. Henry forgave him and took WIlliam into his service wherein he served until Henry died fifteen years later. When Richard Coeur de Lion rebelled
against and was chasing down his father WIlliam turned and waited,alone, for the pursuing army. After Henry's death, Richard took all his lands. William then forced his way into an interview. "Why do treat me so? All I have done is support my liege faithfully for 15 years. Would you not want such a man to follow you?" He got land back. He became immensely wealthy by the standards of the time. Then John Lackland, in one of his jealous fits, ordered him to return practically all of his land. So the head of the army, the king's personal guard and the man any other in Christendom would follow did so immediately. On his deathbed, John called the faithful man back and asked him to be regent for his infant son. And himself did. I have two points here. ONe is that there is more to honor than fighting.
It required obedience. And looking at Sir Woddet and his actions to keep Able from fighting Marder, it required forethought and initiative. The other is that Wolfe's characters, as Chris noted, grow. The punk who offered to kill the boy Toug for Disiri's pleasure is a far distance from the knight who refused to go with her when she offered everything he had dreamed of (her body and company) in order to join a starving army. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma,sans-serif">I think Idnn was as admirable a 16 year old as we'll ever see. And so did Able. "And then I wished I were not mounted that I might kneel to her"<BR>><BR>> > >Seth Lombardi writes:<BR>> > ><BR>> > >> In some way I took Able's limitations<BR>> > >> as being a commentary on the limited (to Wolfe) heights of pagan,<BR>> > >> pre-Christian heroics and morality. . . .<BR>> > ><BR>> > >What you say makes sense, but what of the men and women in Midgarthyr who<BR>> > >show unqualified heroism: especially Idunn? Is she also so flawed, and<BR>> >the<BR>> > >Valfather's blessing on her also a joke?<BR>><BR>>I don't agree with David's assessment (in almost any regard), but Idnn is<BR>>certainly human. She
attempts to manipulate Able to get out of her duty, and<BR>>arguably attempts the same thing with Svon and even Garvaon. As a stronger<BR>>statement, it was my impression that Garvaon's state of mind going into<BR>>Utgard might well have been because she tried to get him to help her run<BR>>off; his presumed refusal tore him up and led to his self-destructive state<BR>>of mind once they actually got to Utgard.<BR>><BR>>That said I think that if we come out of the book condemning its characters<BR>>for their failings then we've missed the point, and we've failed to look<BR>>closely enough at ourselves.<BR>><BR>>David said:<BR>> >Idnn was an opportunist who cared only about becoming queen.<BR>><BR>>This seems fairly absurd to me. Beel wanted her to be queen, and she did<BR>>feel a strong sense of duty to her father. But every indication was
that she<BR>>was frightened of what was going to happen, and was really hoping for a way<BR>>to avoid it. A significant portion of The Knight makes no sense at all if<BR>>you assume she "cared only about becoming queen".<BR>><BR>> >The frost giant women who followed her died for nothing,<BR>><BR>>Can you back this up? I would think that all this would depend on what the<BR>>frost giant women hoped to accomplish by putting their lives on the line,<BR>>and they have very little actual voice in the novels.<BR>><BR>>I'll take a crack at it myself, though perhaps others can do better. Through<BR>>most of the novel the giant women are nowhere to be found. They are bigger<BR>>and stronger than the men, and yet they are absolutely absent from the<BR>>political landscape and pretty much have no say in matters. [Might there be<BR>>a little bit of a
message here?] Their rallying to the queen and fighting<BR>>against the men was a sharp and defining act of *autonomy*. I don't see how<BR>>their involvement can be seen as a failure from any angle.<BR>><BR>> >as did Garvaon.<BR>><BR>>What *did* Garvaon die for, again? By a knight's standards there's not too<BR>>many better ways to die. His name will live on in legend, and even those who<BR>>knew him at the time were so moved that they stopped their flight and built<BR>>an enormous monument to him.<BR>><BR>>But in general, what do knights die for? I am reminded of young Able<BR>>describing Berthold to Ravd. Berthold fought to protect his village, and<BR>>Gerda. Ravd replied that while Berthold was certainly brave and noble and an<BR>>amazing man, because of these reasons he had for fighting he was no knight.<BR>>To be a knight, apparently,
is not to fight for such reasons. The pursuit of<BR>>honor, as it's portrayed here, seems damn near senseless - yet of course,<BR>>you can't help but feel it and understand in some sense.<BR>><BR>>I do think that the younger Berthold is meant as a contrast to the knightly<BR>>ideal. And we are thus led to be a bit more conscious of the fact that from<BR>>our own (modern) subjective perspective, our heroes are more like Berthold<BR>>than Ravd or Garvaon or Able. And also that we know a little less about the<BR>>knightly ideal than we unreflectively assume we do.<BR>><BR>>-- Chris (Civet), brandishing pointy stick<BR>><BR>><BR>>_______________________________________________<BR>>Urth Mailing List<BR>>To post, write urth@urth.net<BR>>Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net<BR></P></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></div><br clear=all><hr> <a
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