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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I said:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>>>I am saying that Tussah KNEW he is a clone of Typhon. It is
likely<BR>>>he even knew that Pas had that name on the Red Sun Whorl
(the<BR>>>Rajan was aware of it). Lemur knows a lot of details about
the<BR>>>family of Typhon.</DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>Chris responded:</FONT><BR>>I think this is
a bigger assertion than you appear<BR>>to think it, at least based on the
cursory treatment of it so far.<BR>>Knowing some details about the history of
Typhon, knowing that Pas is<BR>>Typhon, these are significant things to be
sure - and one can imagine a few<BR>>vectors this knowledge might be
acquired.<BR><BR>>The only way I can possibly think of for Tussah to know
*who*<BR>>he was a clone of is to get it directly from one of the gods.
Presumably<BR>>Pas...<BR><BR>I'm just supposing here, but if I were writing
this story, having<BR>established Silk's remarkable perceptiveness, I would
would have had Tussah<BR>*deduce* his nature. That said, I could imagine lots of
ways for Tussah to<BR>know up to and including be *told* by his guardians.
Nevertheless, it is<BR>*almost* essential that he be aware of it (although
subconscious knowledge cannot be ruled out since this a Wolfe story).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I said:<BR>>>SILK and TUSSAH and were part of the Plan of Pas with
respect to<BR>>>Viron. But it was not necessary for Typhon to plan it from
Urth. Tussah's<BR>>>implantation could be argued to be timed with the
Whorl's arrival to Blue,<BR>>>but Silk's was done by after Pas's
erasure."<BR></DIV>
<P>Chris responded:<BR>>But this puts Pas/Typhon in the position of doing
*just* the kind of<BR>>planning that seems most problematic...And there seems
no reason at all to<BR>>go to the trouble of raising Tussah from an embryo
and engineering his rise<BR>>to Calde-hood, instead of just working with
whoever happens to be in place at<BR>>the time.<BR><BR>Today in Iraq, there
are over a hundred thousand US soldier organizing<BR>patrols and public works
projects. I presume this is part of the Plan of US<BR>General Abizaid. But it is
not necessary for Abizaid to have personally<BR>planned the current any
specific activity. He has layer upon layer of<BR>individuals who are working to
have his Plan succeed. They derive their<BR>daily duties from that Plan, but
their focuses change from day to day as<BR>circumstances require.<BR><BR>Since
it is an *inequivocal* fact that the embryos *were* on the ship to<BR>with added
abilities to unite and direct the colonists, it seems obvious to<BR>me that they
would start dropping those embryos a couple decades before<BR>the
colonists' planned departure. Who did that? I would guess the<BR>technicians at
either end of the Long Sun. Typhon did not have to *plan*<BR>that being done per
se. It probably wasn't even his idea. The colonists on<BR>the Whorl came in
three types: the Cargo who maintained varying cultures<BR>(presumably
artificially created), the Sleepers (who also had their memories<BR>tinkered
with to prevent them overawing the Cargo), and the Embryos,<BR>and the
embryos with their pimped out genes. But the Plan went awry.<BR>Pas was murdered
by the other Mainframe modules, Tussah--one of the hyped up embryos--was
murdered, and some of the embryos were stolen<BR>and sold on the black
market.<BR><BR>Tussah's implantation was *probably* part of the orderly Plan.
But Silk's<BR>implantation and any subsequent similarly purposeful implantations
(Mucor's<BR>type does count) only required parties with means to emplant them
and a<BR>desire to see the Plan to succeed. It was CERTAINLY not necessary
for<BR>Silk's ascension to the Caldeship be planned from Urth. <BR><BR>>Well,
Silk meets Mamelta<BR>>rather than Kypris in Mainframe would imply that the
same would apply to<BR>>his father; since we know Typhon doesn't make it on
the Whorl, it would<BR>>imply that Silk's father is someone other than
Typhon. So I don't think<BR>>that interpretation is favorable for your
purposes.<BR><BR>Buuuut, the father is NOT identified and Mamelta *is*. However,
if <BR>Mamelta = Kypris then Silk's bio dad is Typhon (unless you think Ty
was<BR>being cuckholded).<BR><BR>>>If it were important to hide a child
from the eyes of the powerful, then<BR>>>the best schools might be the
worst place for his welfare.<BR>>>Putting [child who was the image of
Tussah] in the best schools<BR>>>probably would have been
murder.<BR><BR>>To fly under the radar you have to place him in the worst
place you can<BR>>find? A nice middle-income neighborhood would have done
just fine for<BR>>concealment.<BR><BR>No it would not. The essence of middle
class is social mobility. If you want to<BR>hide someone from the eyes of the
powerful in a limited space (such as a<BR>city), you have to place that person
as far from the eyes of the powerful as<BR>possible...such as a neglected
neighborhood. What difference would it make?<BR>With the leadership
clones' innate skills they could overcome any social<BR>obstacles
to rise like a cork from the bottom of the Mariana Trench. Doesn't<BR>Sik's
ascension prove that?</P>
<P>What was the plan in placing a clone in Horn's neighborhood?<BR>Have you read
"A Confederacy Of Dunces"? There's a pivotal scene where Burma<BR>Jones, in an
act of sabotage writes information identifying his employer on<BR>a bag of
pornography. Why? How would that be sabotage? "Because it doesn't<BR>belong
there," he says. He doesn't have a plan beyond that. By the same<BR>token, I
doubt whoever implanted Horn had a specific plan for how he would<BR>be used
either, but such a clone would be a powerful tool and it would have<BR>Tussah's
face and it was against the Ayuntamientos perceived interests...so<BR>that would
be enough. Quetzal looks like a better and better choice since<BR>Silk was MOVED
to that neighborhood by the Charter. But, truth is not
really<BR>stated.<BR><BR>>>Based on Mark Millman's hint found the relevant
quote on page 139 of<BR>>>"Sword and Citadel". What Typhon says of his
face is that "it is the face<BR>>>that men are customed to obey".
Obviously that is not an issue on the<BR>>>Whorl unless Typhon intends the
colonists to be ruled by physical<BR>>>representations of
monsters.<BR><BR>>Incorporating Mark's insight here creates something of a
pretzel of logic<BR>>that is difficult to straighten out...<BR><BR>Well lets
start by quoting the text then:<BR>******************************<BR>"Why should
you desire to have such a thing done?"<BR><BR>"That I might have life, of
course...My physicians, of whom I naturally had<BR>the best of many worlds, told
me it might be possible for me to take a new<BR>body, their first thought being
to enclose my brain in the skull previously<BR>occupied by another. You see the
flaw in that?...The face--the face! The<BR>face would be lost, and it is the
face that men are accustomed to obey!...<BR>I told them it wouldn't do. Then one
came who suggested that the entire<BR>head might be substituted. It would even
be easier, he said because the<BR>complex neutral connections controlling speech
and vision would be left intact.<BR>I promised him a palatinate if he should
succeed."<BR><BR>"It would appear to me--" I began.<BR><BR>Typhon laughed once
more. "That it would be better if the original head were<BR>removed first. Yes,
I always thought so myself. But the technique of making<BR>neural connections
was difficult, and he found that the best way--all this<BR>was with experimental
subjects I provided for him--was to transfer only the<BR>voluntary functions by
surgery. When that was done, the involuntary one's<BR>transferred themselves,
eventually. Then the original head could be removed.<BR>It would leave a scar,
of course, but a shirt would cover it."<BR><BR>"But something went wrong?"
[...]<BR><BR>Mostly a matter of time." The terrible vigor of his voice, which
had been<BR>unrelenting, now seemed, now seemed to wane. "Piaton was one of
my<BR>slaves--not the largest, but the strongest of all. We tested them. It
never<BR>occurred to me that someone with his strength might be strong, too,
in<BR>holding to the action of the heart...It was a period of great confusion
as<BR>well."<BR>******************************<BR><BR>>The first question is,
did Typhon possess special genetic powers of<BR>>leadership, or
not?<BR>>If no, then Silk/Tussah (who *do* possess such special genetic
abilities)<BR>>are not of Typhon's line. So your answer here has to be
"yes".<BR><BR>I disagree. Are you saying that if you had a grandchild with a
genetic<BR>disorder who benefited from gene therapy, that he would not be of
your line<BR>anymore?<BR><BR>Or are you saying that a clone who has had his
genes tinkered with to some<BR>degree is by definition no longer a clone? Well
then what of the multi-armed<BR>twin Number Five found? This is an interesting
case for Sci-Fi family court,<BR>but it doesn't matter in this case, because I
assert:<BR><BR>1) Tussah considered himself to be a clone of Typhon.<BR>2)
Tussah knew Silk's genetic relation to Typhon.<BR>3) Tussah, therefore, called
Silk "the son not of my body", NOT in order to<BR>differentiate his unnamed
successor from all other claimants (since knowledge<BR>of that was clearly and
ultimately not necessary), BUT because he considered<BR>it a fact. A simple
fact.<BR><BR>>The second question is, if Typhon did possess special genetic
powers of<BR>>leadership, then why did he have to worry so much about his
face?<BR><BR>Well, I hope I shown that it is not necessary for Ty to have such
special<BR>manufactured powers. And the text shows that that was not the
reason<BR>for his concern over his face. The issue is that the people
are<BR>ACCUSTOMED to obey his face. Enclose his brain in another body<BR>and to
that extent he is starting from scratch. Enemies might even let out<BR>that he
is NOT the real Typhon, but a ursurper. The power of dictators<BR>lay in their
ability to prove that coming against them is fruitless. If there<BR>were any
question about who was really in there. The whole farce<BR>would
collapse.<BR><BR>>the whole two-headed monster thing isn't
exactly<BR>>familiar (or positive, either). </P>
<P>But Pas did not originally intend to have that head very long. His testimony
states that Piaton held on to the involuntary bodily functions longer than
expected and the do to all the "confusion" the an occasion never arose where it
was convenient to figure out how to help it along.</P>
<P>>[And of course even without connecting the leadership genes to
facial<BR>>features, one still expects Typhon's son (if he is to have
similar<BR>>abilities) to take after his father quite a bit.]</P>
<P>Sons don't always look like their fathers. Sometimes they look like their
mothers instead. It happens. But Silk did inherit his father's blonde
hair and physical supposed
physical significance. </P></BODY></HTML>