In Lovecraft's "At the Mountains of Madness", those flying interstellar starfish with axial symmetry (Elder Gods?) who live in Antartica are similar to Erebus (the glacial equivalent to Abaia)only that he lives somewhere near the North Pole like a diabolic Santa Claus. But he does control armies which he is hurling at the Commonwealth, so is not humanity already at war with with these monsters? I am sure Erebus does his own thing and probably doesn't invite Abaia over for coffee and cake, but an evil superintelligence is an evil superintelligence after all, and if they are out to get you they are out to get you. Other than that, I don't see any profound affect on Wolfe by Lovecraft but I have not done a very close or thorough reading of Lovecraft so I could very well be wrong. EOT; --- urth-urth.net-request@lists.urth.net wrote: From: urth-urth.net-request@lists.urth.net Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:48:37 -0700 (PDT) To: urth-urth.net@lists.urth.net Subject: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 10, Issue 3 Send urth-urth.net mailing list submissions to urth-urth.net@lists.urth.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to urth-urth.net-request@lists.urth.net You can reach the person managing the list at urth-urth.net-owner@lists.urth.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of urth-urth.net digest..." Today's Topics: 1. cthulhu mythos, BotNS (don doggett) 2. SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS (nastler) 3. SV: Re: (urth) "There Are Doors" Comes To Japan (nastler) 4. Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS (Andy Robertson) 5. Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS (pthwndxrclzp) 6. Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS (Andy Robertson) 7. powers of Erebus and Abaia (was Re: cthulhu mythos, BotNS) (David DiGiacomo) 8. Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS (Chris) 9. Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS (James Wynn) 10. Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS (Maru Dubshinki) 11. Re: powers of Erebus and Abaia (was Re: cthulhu mythos, BotNS) (Maru Dubshinki) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:36:56 -0700 (PDT) From: don doggett Subject: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS To: urth Message-ID: <20050602213656.36325.qmail@web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I googled to see if this had been touched on in the archives and I didn't find anything, but forgive me if I'm going over old ground. I'm in the process of reading a collection of short stories by August Derleth, set in Lovecraft's universe. The stories are quite good so far, and it seems to me that perhaps Derleth, rather than Lovecraft, was a greater influence on Wolfe regarding the nature of Abaia and the rest and their conflict with the Hiero's. The very fact of a conflict seems to bear this out as Derleth sets the Great Old Ones (Cthulhu etc) against the Elder Gods who, interestingly enough, reside in Orion. There is no such dichotomy in Lovecraft, to the best of my knowledge. There is also mention of some of these creatures living forward in time and plenty of references to something thundering in places beneath the earth (the resemblance to the mines of saltus is uncanny). Another persistent theme I have noticed in Derleth's stories is the ability of forbidden knowledge to corrupt. The simple reading of passages from the Necronomicon or the other evil texts from these stories is often enough to set a character on the path to his doom. This makes me wonder about Severian's possession of the Lives of the 17 Megatherians (isn't that one of the books in his sabertache?) and where his loyalties lie. Don __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:46:37 +0200 (CEST) From: nastler Subject: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS To: The Urth Mailing List Message-ID: <20050603074637.46661.qmail@web54208.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Small point; The book 17 Megatherians dosn't go in the sabertache, it stays in the library. The "corrupting" influence on Sev probably comes to him through Thecla, who is a good bet for having read 17 Megs... I'd like to hear more discussion about the Great Old Ones / Elder Gods. I think it's only been referenced before, not chewed to the marrow the way things are usually done on this list.... :-) nastler --- don doggett skrev: > I googled to see if this had been touched on in the > archives and I didn't find anything, but forgive me > if > I'm going over old ground. I'm in the process of > reading a collection of short stories by August > Derleth, set in Lovecraft's universe. The stories > are > quite good so far, and it seems to me that perhaps > Derleth, rather than Lovecraft, was a greater > influence on Wolfe regarding the nature of Abaia and > the rest and their conflict with the Hiero's. The > very fact of a conflict seems to bear this out as > Derleth sets the Great Old Ones (Cthulhu etc) > against > the Elder Gods who, interestingly enough, reside in > Orion. There is no such dichotomy in Lovecraft, to > the best of my knowledge. There is also mention of > some of these creatures living forward in time and > plenty of references to something thundering in > places > beneath the earth (the resemblance to the mines of > saltus is uncanny). Another persistent theme I have > noticed in Derleth's stories is the ability of > forbidden knowledge to corrupt. The simple reading > of > passages from the Necronomicon or the other evil > texts > from these stories is often enough to set a > character > on the path to his doom. This makes me wonder about > Severian's possession of the Lives of the 17 > Megatherians (isn't that one of the books in his > sabertache?) and where his loyalties lie. > > Don > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Urth Mailing List > To post, write urth@urth.net > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:53:46 +0200 (CEST) From: nastler Subject: SV: Re: (urth) "There Are Doors" Comes To Japan To: James Wynn , The Urth Mailing List Message-ID: <20050603075346.28346.qmail@web54204.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Or Hethor... --- James Wynn skrev: > Just a general obsession with dolls...treating them > like people ala the > concern that chaining them would be cruel. My first > thought when I read the > article was TAD. > (shrug) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Maru Dubshinki" > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > > Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 8:56 PM > Subject: Re: (urth) "There Are Doors" Comes To Japan > > > ? > I'm afraid I plumb missed the 'There are doors' > connection- I don't > see how it ties in. Explanation please? > > ~Maru > > On 5/23/05, James Wynn > wrote: > > Japanese man gets jail time for 'kidnapping' dolls > > > > May 23, 6:12 AM (ET) > > > > TOKYO (Reuters) - A Japanese man has been > sentenced to five-and-a-half > > years > > in jail for snatching mannequins used by a cake > shop chain to tout its > > wares. > > "Peko-chan," a round-eyed doll around the size of > a six-year-old, has been > > used by Fujiya Co. Ltd. to sell sweets for five > decades and her grinning > > countenance is a familiar sight in front of shops > around Japan. > > > > Recently, however, she has become a favorite of > collectors, leading to a > > rash of "Peko-chan" snatchings. > > > > Takeishi Shibuya, 31, was convicted of stealing 15 > of the large dolls, > > valued at about 1.1 million yen ($10,170), a court > official in Yamagata > > prefecture, northern Japan, said on Monday. > > > > In several cases, Shibuya used pepper spray and > spray paint to fend off > > store employees, leading prosecutors to demand a > sentence of nine years in > > prison. > > > > "But he has reflected on his crimes and feels bad > about what he did, so > > the > > sentence was lighter as a result," the official > said. > > > > After a wave of "Peko-chan" disappearances last > year, the company > > suggested > > chaining the dolls down, but customers complained > that this would be > > cruel. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Urth Mailing List > > To post, write urth@urth.net > > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net > > > _______________________________________________ > Urth Mailing List > To post, write urth@urth.net > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net > > > _______________________________________________ > Urth Mailing List > To post, write urth@urth.net > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 13:49:59 +0100 From: "Andy Robertson" Subject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS To: The Urth Mailing List Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" nastler writes: > Small point; The book 17 Megatherians dosn't go in the > sabertache, it stays in the library. The "corrupting" > influence on Sev probably comes to him through Thecla, > who is a good bet for having read 17 Megs... > > I'd like to hear more discussion about the Great Old > Ones / Elder Gods. I think it's only been referenced > before, not chewed to the marrow the way things are > usually done on this list.... :-) > > nastler I honestly don't think there is much direct reference. However, Lovecraft's "Old Ones" were really non-supernatural alien entities of such power that they could not be distinguished from gods, from the human perspective. It's arguable that he was the first really influential writer to do this - to address the idea of gods, from a rigorously non-supernatural perspective. Wolfe has many non-omnipotent "gods" of this type: Erebus and Abia are godlike in their power as far as humans are concerned, but there is nothing really supernatural about them. . ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:27:42 -0700 From: pthwndxrclzp Subject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS To: The Urth Mailing List Message-ID: <2124d6b1050603092713cffcd1@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 What exactly are Erebus and Abaia's "powers"? Despite lots of scary intimations and background threats, it doesn't seem as if we really have much information on what such creatures can do, beyond some kind of low-level mind control (and perhaps having their lieutenants "swim" through time upon occasion). Or am I missing something? > Wolfe has many non-omnipotent "gods" of this type: Erebus and Abia are > godlike in their power as far as humans are concerned, but there is nothing > really supernatural about them. ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 17:36:43 +0100 From: "Andy Robertson" Subject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS To: pthwndxrclzp , The Urth Mailing List Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" pthwndxrclzp writes: > What exactly are Erebus and Abaia's "powers"? Despite lots of scary > intimations and background threats, it doesn't seem as if we really > have much information on what such creatures can do, beyond some kind > of low-level mind control (and perhaps having their lieutenants "swim" > through time upon occasion). Or am I missing something? Much like Cthulhu's. They have half-human submarine servitors; they control dreams; they will rise in the last days to take the world. But more to the point they control much of the Urth's surface through their enslaved human servants. They are not exactly GOO's but then Cthulhu was small beans compared to chappies like YogSothoth or Azathoth. ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:43:56 -0700 (PDT) From: david@slack.com (David DiGiacomo) Subject: (urth) powers of Erebus and Abaia (was Re: cthulhu mythos, BotNS) To: urth-urth.net@lists.urth.net Message-ID: <10506031643.AA01346@slack.com> > What exactly are Erebus and Abaia's "powers"? They resurrect Severian when he drowns in the Gyoll, and they seem to be immortal. Those are pretty good powers! It's interesting that Severian shares them. ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 17:29:45 +0000 From: "Chris" Subject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS To: urth-urth.net@lists.urth.net Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I take that "rise in the last days to take the world" bit with a grain of salt; it seems more like a bit of standard mythology crusted on to whatever the original story was. The big bad nasties *always* rise in the last days to contend for dominion over the world. And any self-respecting big-bad-nasty will make sure everyone fears that, one of these days, it will be back... Andy said: >Much like Cthulhu's. They have half-human submarine servitors; they >control dreams; they will rise in the last days to take the world. But >more to the point they control much of the Urth's surface through their >enslaved human servants. > >They are not exactly GOO's but then Cthulhu was small beans compared to >chappies like YogSothoth or Azathoth. ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:28:57 -0500 From: "James Wynn" Subject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS To: "The Urth Mailing List" Message-ID: <003001c5686a$5db87940$60a3f63f@wynnhouse> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response >I honestly don't think there is much direct reference. Maybe, maybe not. But there is some evidence that Wolfe wet his whistle on Lovecraft for THE WIZARD KNIGHT. The only literary reference I know of for "Skai" is the farmland-belted River SKAI beyond which lies the city of Ulthar where it is illegal to kill a CAT. ~ Crush ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:47:01 -0400 From: Maru Dubshinki Subject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS To: James Wynn , The Urth Mailing List Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 6/3/05, James Wynn wrote: > > >I honestly don't think there is much direct reference. > > Maybe, maybe not. But there is some evidence that Wolfe wet his whistle on > Lovecraft for THE WIZARD KNIGHT. The only literary reference I know of for > "Skai" is the farmland-belted River SKAI beyond which lies the city of > Ulthar where it is illegal to kill a CAT. > > ~ Crush I take it that that reference for Skai is drawn for a Lovecraft story? ~Maru ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:48:30 -0400 From: Maru Dubshinki Subject: Re: (urth) powers of Erebus and Abaia (was Re: cthulhu mythos, BotNS) To: david@slack.com, The Urth Mailing List Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 6/3/05, David DiGiacomo wrote: > > What exactly are Erebus and Abaia's "powers"? > > They resurrect Severian when he drowns in the Gyoll, and they seem to be > immortal. Those are pretty good powers! It's interesting that Severian > shares them. pace Frazer, much magic is 'contagious'. But I think the 'shared' powers are more likely from the New Sun- that's just what UotNS seemed to me to be about. ~Maru ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth@urth.net Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net End of urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 10, Issue 3 ********************************************