(urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women

[Norwood, Frederick Hudson]

I strongly urge all involved to drop this discussion, which I’m afraid I started, and return to the subject of Gene Wolfe.

Rick

From: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Charles Gillingham
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2020 1:51 PM
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Subject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women

"Idiot" is an ableist slur...

Some of the most vulgar societies were the most stable. Walking down any given street in Augustus' Rome would have disgusted us. The graffiti in Pompeii was worse than any I've seen growing up in the hood. Evolution isn't always a clean or polite process. The battle of ideas is just as dirty and violent as any other battle for survival.
On Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 10:32 AM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com<mailto:danldo at gmail.com>> wrote:
If you can't figure out a way to politely tell someone that they are an idiot who should go jump off a pier, your linguistic skills are sadly lacking. And that is no excuse for rudeness.

Papa Heinlein, he say: when courtesy goes by the wayside, that civilization is in decline.

Note also that "civil" and "civilization" are intimately related words.

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!
--Tȟašúŋke Witkó


On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 9:11 AM Charles Gillingham <charlesgillingham at gmail.com<mailto:charlesgillingham at gmail.com>> wrote:
Controlling speech is just one step away from controlling thought, which is controlling action. Freedom of speech isn't freedom to compliment or placate or agree with the majority (or belligerent minority, in this case). It's freedom to disagree with authority, to be rude and controversial. But sure if you want to be polite when someone tells you to come with them, go ahead be as nice as you want.

On Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 8:08 AM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com<mailto:danldo at gmail.com>> wrote:
Rick, you got it in one.

I'm someone who occasionally says some of those rude things. I'm old enough to remember when it was "normal". But I come down fully on the side of "political correctness", or, as it is properly know, politeness.

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!
--Tȟašúŋke Witkó


On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 4:27 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu<mailto:NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu>> wrote:
In my experience, people who complain about having to be “politically correct” are people who want to say rude things and are really complaining about not being allowed to be rude.

Rick

From: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net<mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net>] On Behalf Of Gem Caccetta
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 2:15 PM
To: urth at lists.urth.net<mailto:urth at lists.urth.net>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] (urth) Wolfe & Women


On Wed Jan 29 2020 Ab de Dos wrote:

"I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a christian misogynist…"



I know Wolfe’s portrayal of women has been discussed many times on this list. I found this tidbit from my recent re-reading of Free Live Free interesting:

Free says…”You like women, don’t you, Mr. Barnes?”

“Like them?” Taken off guard Barnes considered for a moment. “Not really. I want them, and since I can’t have them, usually, I don’t like them. But I want them, I suppose you could say that. I admire Madame Serpentina.”


I wouldn’t be surprised if this was Wolfe’s own attitude toward women speaking through Barnes. He could find things to admire in some women, but he didn’t really like them. Just my guess, for what it’s worth.

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