(urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun

Wed Jan 29 05:14:53 PST 2020

Certainly Wolfe is more subtle than Heinlein, but then Wolfe is more subtle than just about everybody. There is a lot of fun to be had in trying to figure out what Wolfe is doing. On the other hand, he always has an entertaining surface story to tell, and can be enjoyed even by readers who are not interested in solving the puzzles he poses.

I’ve never read anything Wolfe said about Heinlein, though I would love to do so if anyone can recommend anything. I do think it is clear that Wolfe read a lot of Heinlein, and equally clear that Wolfe had strong opinions about everything he read, whether he expressed them or not.

Rick

From: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Ab de Vos
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 8:07 AM
To: urth at lists.urth.net
Subject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun

I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a christian misogynist. To compare Wolfe and Heinlein  in the ways they give expression to political ideas proves I think Wolfe the more subtle. I think Wolfe values self reliance but is aware of human limitation and evil. He is no ideologist as Heinlein might be considered though his ideas changed from left to right. Wolfe neither sanctifies the market nor the state and is critical of both. His books are not a direct and obtrusive mouthpiece for his faith.
Op 29-1-2020 om 13:50 schreef Norwood, Frederick Hudson:
P.S. Sorry to have gone on so long about Heinlein. I mentioned Heinlein only in the context of Wolfe’s The Land Across. I’m sure there is a Heinlein thread for discussing Heinlein apart from Wolfe. Let’s go back to Wolfe.

Best,
Rick Norwood

From: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Norwood, Frederick Hudson
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 7:47 AM
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net><mailto:urth at lists.urth.net>
Subject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun

I’ve read Starship Troopers three times, but thank you for correcting my memory – that it was “government service” rather than “military service”. Just from memory, I thought all government service, including work on Pluto, was under the direction of the military. I’ll remember to look out for that next time I read the book.

I also enjoy Farnham’s Freehold, which I’ve read twice. The childbirth scene is heartbreaking, and one of the best I’ve read. I do not agree that his goal was to show that atomic war would completely wipe out the kind of civilization we appreciate. The life on the Freehold seemed, in many ways ideal. “Free Kittens!”

To what extent Heinlein’s Grand Old Man is unreliable, rather than a way for Heinlein to express his own ideas, is a source of endless debate, and both sides hold their own views pretty strongly. Clearly, you hold your views strongly enough to accuse me of prejudice, even though I said, very clearly, that I love Heinlein’s work.

Best,
Rick Norwood

From: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 1:05 PM
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net<mailto:urth at lists.urth.net>>
Subject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun

I have a better question.

Have you read Starship Troopers? Because you're making a false statement about it. "Only people who have served in the military can vote" - thanks for playing; come again. What is true is that those who have performed some sort of government service can vote. What is also true is that most of this is not military service - for example, there's the guy who goes to work in an observatory on Pluto. The idea here is that the vote has to be earned by showing that you are willing to serve the people whom your vote will help govern.

Farnham's Freehold is a failed novel. His goal was to show that atomic war would completely wipe out the kind of civilization we appreciate. As a side issue, he also wanted to show that race prejudice is bad by flipping it over and putting whites in the slave class. He screwed up by adding the cannibalism thing, making the whole book so flawed that it can't serve its intended purposes.

Stranger? Jubal doesn't know what he's talking about there. It is strongly implied that Mike does have physical love with males as well as females. And there's strong evidence that Heinlein at least experimented with another man when he was young.

You're reading through your prejudices; the received wisdom is that Heinlein was a fascist crank, and you're seeing what you expect to see.

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!
--Tȟašúŋke Witkó

On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 8:04 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu<mailto:NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu>> wrote:
Have you read Starship Troopers? Only people who have served in the military can vote. (Heinlein claims that, in this world, it has been proved mathematically that this is the best government.

I love Starship Troopers.  It’s one of my favorite books. But it does glorify the military and, as Heinlein got older, his politics got ever more conservative. In Farnham’s Freehold the nice seeming Black people turn out to  be cannibals. One area where he did become more liberal was homosexuality. In Stranger in a Strange Land Jubal Harshaw expressed the view that Mike could never have sex with another man. By Time Enough for Love, gay sex is just fine. The story is that Theodore Sturgeon, who Heinlein loved and admired, took Heinlein aside and explained to him the facts of life.

Best,
Rick

From: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net<mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net>] On Behalf Of Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 10:32 AM
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net<mailto:urth at lists.urth.net>>
Subject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun

I think it is safe to say that Heinlein never "loved" or advocated a military dictatorship.

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!
--Tȟašúŋke Witkó

On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 4:57 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu<mailto:NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu>> wrote:
Other Heinlein parallels/satires in The Land Across: Grafton is Heinlein’s classic “man who learns better” turned inside out. What Grafton learns is what Heinlein “learned” in his long career. Heinlein, like Grafton, starts out as a liberal, (who like Heinlein, loves travel) and “learns” to love a military dictatorship, with a mysterious Hitler-like dictator serving as Heinlein’s “grand old man”.

Rick Norwood

From: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net<mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net>] On Behalf Of Stephen Hoy
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2020 4:47 PM
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net<mailto:urth at lists.urth.net>>
Subject: Re: (urth) [EXTERNAL] Re: Heinlein's Universe and The Long Sun

Appreciating the Heinlein connections noted by Gem and Gerry; a reminder that RAH is still relevant in the 21st century, as Christopher Nuttall might put it.

The interesting bit about the conveyor belt roads of Heinlein's The Roads Must Roll is that it has a precedent, and a much better fit with TLA, in H.G.Wells' When the Sleeper Awakens (1899). Wells' title recalls a noticeable sentence in TLA Chapter One "Now it seems to me that I must have been asleep a long time before I got into bed" followed by several "awakenings" throughout TLA.

Note that Wells and Wolfe each relate the struggle of a potential ruler of a dystopian society who gets caught up in a struggle between opposing factions. I don't think the parallels go much beyond this. It's a lot like Wolfe's choice of Baskin-Robbins as an allusion to Andromeda (Messier-31 Flavors) in An Evil Guest, or the allusion to Boris Badenov in a conversation at a cafe in TLA, "I don't trust that conductor. Why is he so short?" to draw attention to Papa Zenon's lack of stature.

Aramini's Black-Red-White trichotomy helps us think about a lot of TLA's mysteries, although I suspect there is a lot of cloning going on along with the imprinting of personalities. Imprinting is found in Home Fires, TLA, A Borrowed Man. There's cloning/imprinting of some sort in A Borrowed Man, and I think something similar is happening in The Land Across.

- Stephen

On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 10:21 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu<mailto:NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu>> wrote:
Another Wolfe novel, The Land Across, is, I think strongly influenced by Heinlein, and essentially a satire of Heinlein. This is just my opinion, I’ve never heard anyone else say this. But the Rolling Roads early in the novel, which play no other part in the plot, I take as a hint.

Best,
Rick
_______________________________________________
Urth Mailing List
To post, write urth at urth.net<mailto:urth at urth.net>
Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
_______________________________________________
Urth Mailing List
To post, write urth at urth.net<mailto:urth at urth.net>
Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net

_______________________________________________

Urth Mailing List

To post, write urth at urth.net<mailto:urth at urth.net>

Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20200129/eb28dccc/attachment.htm>