(urth) [EXTERNAL] Wolfe & Women

[Dan'l Danehy-Oakes]

Y'all are, of course, right that we can't and shouldn't be able to control
others' speech.

We are free, however, to criticize, ignore, and ostracize rude people. And
that is what "political correctness" means.

Those who are criticized, ignored, and ostracized will protest that they
are persecuted.

Bullshit. (Is that sufficiently plain speech for y'all?)

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

*Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!*
*--*Tȟašúŋke Witkó


On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 10:56 AM Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote:

> My view: There is a place for courtesy, and a place for plainspeak. Just
> like there is a place for biting your tongue, and a place for tough love.
>
> My other view: We don’t get to control what someone else says, neither
> legally nor physically, so learning to deal with people who don’t follow
> your own views on speech (or anything else) is one of the most important
> skills you can obtain in life.
>
> One final view: Gene Wolfe was not misogynistic. He once started crying
> his eyes out while telling me how hard it was when he had to stop writing
> Cassie’s voice in An Evil Guest.
>
> I know that one anecdote doesn’t summarize a man, or whether a man’s views
> on women evolved as he grew older, but I find it hard to buy into any
> flippant high ground aimed at marginalizing Wolfe’s portrayal of women in
> his literature.
>
> …ryan
>
>
> *Ryan Dunn, Director*
> Liftingfaces
> www.liftingfaces.com
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 30, 2020, at 1:32 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If you can't figure out a way to politely tell someone that they are an
> idiot who should go jump off a pier, your linguistic skills are sadly
> lacking. And that is no excuse for rudeness.
>
> Papa Heinlein, he say: when courtesy goes by the wayside, that
> civilization is in decline.
>
> Note also that "civil" and "civilization" are intimately related words.
>
> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
>
> *Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!*
> *--*Tȟašúŋke Witkó
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 9:11 AM Charles Gillingham <
> charlesgillingham at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Controlling speech is just one step away from controlling thought, which
>> is controlling action. Freedom of speech isn't freedom to compliment or
>> placate or agree with the majority (or belligerent minority, in this case).
>> It's freedom to disagree with authority, to be rude and controversial. But
>> sure if you want to be polite when someone tells you to come with them, go
>> ahead be as nice as you want.
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 8:08 AM Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Rick, you got it in one.
>>>
>>> I'm someone who occasionally says some of those rude things. I'm old
>>> enough to remember when it was "normal". But I come down fully on the side
>>> of "political correctness", or, as it is properly know, *politeness*.
>>>
>>> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
>>>
>>> *Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!*
>>> *--*Tȟašúŋke Witkó
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 4:27 AM Norwood, Frederick Hudson <
>>> NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In my experience, people who complain about having to be “politically
>>>> correct” are people who want to say rude things and are really complaining
>>>> about not being allowed to be rude.
>>>>
>>>> Rick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On Behalf Of *Gem
>>>> Caccetta
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 29, 2020 2:15 PM
>>>> *To:* urth at lists.urth.net
>>>> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] (urth) Wolfe & Women
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed Jan 29 2020 Ab de Dos wrote:
>>>> "I believe the politically correct accuse Wolfe likewise of being a
>>>> christian misogynist…"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I know Wolfe’s portrayal of women has been discussed many times on this
>>>> list. I found this tidbit from my recent re-reading of Free Live Free
>>>> interesting:
>>>> Free says…”You like women, don’t you, Mr. Barnes?”
>>>> “Like them?” Taken off guard Barnes considered for a moment. “Not
>>>> really. I want them, and since I can’t have them, usually, I don’t like
>>>> them. But I want them, I suppose you could say that. I admire Madame
>>>> Serpentina.”
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn’t be surprised if this was Wolfe’s own attitude toward women
>>>> speaking through Barnes. He could find things to admire in some women, but
>>>> he didn’t really like them. Just my guess, for what it’s worth.
>>>>
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