(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and genesis

Wed Sep 10 11:43:55 PDT 2014

But that requires the Church to have fallen somewhere along the way, and
the idea that the Church may fall is a heresy of much greater magnitude
than Lee's issues with the reality of pagan gods, which is something that
isn't really heretical. Or with God's promise that the Earth would not
again be flooded: on the one hand, Wolfe chose flooding when he could have
chosen anything else, so backtracking on it makes no sense. On the other
hand, there are times when God does seem to have broken promises.

I also find the issue of 'next' and 'previous' uncomfortably inappropriate
when discussing separate universes. St Augustine knew already that there is
no 'before' nor 'after' the universe, because time itself is part of the
universe.

And Ushas isn't a 'next universe'. It0s the same universe, the same
creation.

I find the problems go away if we accept the quite trivial observations
that:
- universes aren't 'temporally aligned', rather think of them as a bunch of
balls inside a bag, with our own being in the centre and Yesod not being
one of them
- not being temporally aligned, there is no need to worry that God made a
promise in our own universe and then 'broke' it in another
- rather, what happens in the others is independent, and yet all of them
may echo (differently and out of order) what happens in ours
- there may have never been a flood on Urth (Severian's being its one
flood), Severian's time may be millions of years after the time in
Severian's universe that corresponds to our own present here (so 'in the
future', but not our future)
- the earthly references on Urth may be echoes and may be imported by the
Yesodis, or some people on universes other than our own may be able to have
visions of things happening in our own
- the Incarnation is a single event, happening in our universe only, and it
will eventually ripple to the others

My view is that Severian's universe is not unlike ours, but with slightly
different Jews and Christ was never born there. The issue tackled is, how
did such a universe end up, and how can it be saved, in a soteriological
sense? And each Book of the X Sun gives an answer.

On 10 September 2014 17:41, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com> wrote:

> Well.. I guess my big problem with it is the idea of no Christ in a
> previous iteration, because that is something that we see more clearly in
> The Wizard Knight - knightly medieval virtues (ie- boasting and bullying)
> stripped of Christianity.
>
> The religion of Silk is Catholicism with paganism written over it, the
> cross "voided" (an inversion of pagan holidays being "appropriated" by
> Christianity), quotes from Marcus Aurelius in the Chrasmological Writings
> and all.  The Saints names, the scriptural echoes ... eucharists everywhere
> ... seems the solar cycle is Catholic or Orthodox Christian in a way Wizard
> Knight never was.  The cross can't be voided if there was never anything on
> it - why does it exist as a symbol at all if it has not been effaced by
> time and the desire for worship which Typhon's amalgamation brings?  Typhon
> steals the Catholic religion and then winds up making something sublime in
> Silk. Self aggrandizement cannot kill the spirit (and I still think the
> male and female voices in Silk's ears is a pre-recorded message from his
> parents, Pas and Kypris)
>
> On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 9:04 AM, Lee <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >Gerry Quinn: The Yesodi are mentioned here. They were responsible
>>
>> >for the creation or modication of the Hierodules, who in turn
>>
>> >created aquastors such as Malrubius:
>>
>>
>> This is tautology. You are saying beings from another universe were
>>
>> mentioned when beings from another universe were mentioned.
>>
>>
>> It is a diversion from the topic of the this thread which is whether
>>
>> Urth is a future version of planet Earth or whether Urth is a previous
>>
>> universal iteration of Earth.
>>
>>
>> The James Jordan-Gene Wolfe quotes which inspired this thread are:
>>
>>
>> >JJ: This universe that you set in Briah, or part of it--is that our
>> universe?
>>
>>
>>
>> >GW: No. I thought of it as a long past universe. Something that we are
>> repeating
>>
>> >rather than something that we are....
>>
>>
>> >...GW: Yes, I was looking at what past universes might have been like
>> really and
>>
>> >that is how...I began with the idea of what is going to happen to us if
>> we just
>>
>> >keep going the way we are going and continue to live on the continent of
>> Earth
>>
>> >without ever really going into the sea or going into space and we just
>> wait for
>>
>> >the money to run out. The do nothing future and thinking about what that
>> would be.
>>
>> >And then I got into the idea of universal cycles. And decided that I
>> would show
>>
>> >that this might be a past cycle.
>>
>>
>> http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html#urth
>>
>>
>> To me this is an explicit, detailed and unequivocal statement by Wolfe
>> that he
>>
>> intended Briah and Urth to be seen as a previous universe, not our own
>> universe
>>
>> nor our own Earth.
>>
>>
>> Marc has suggested this was a casual, self-ret-con of Wolfe own work to
>> pander to
>>
>> Protestant sensibilities and to post facto justify the occurrence of a
>> second Flood
>>
>> on Earth in violation of the Covenant.
>>
>>
>> With due respect to Marc, I find this to be an unbelievable explanation
>> of such
>>
>> specific and detailed words from Mr. Wolfe . I actually think it would
>> make more sense
>>
>> to suggest that James Jordan deliberately misquoted Wolfe to uphold
>> Protestant dogma.
>>
>> And with due respect to James, I do not think that is at all the case. I
>> respect
>>
>> both Gene Wolfe and James Jordan and I feel their words were reported
>> faithfully and
>>
>> honestly in this interview.
>>
>>
>> I might find the accusation of ret-conning slightly plausible if there
>> were no textual
>>
>> hints to support Gene Wolfe's contention that he intended Urth to be a
>> previous
>>
>> iteration of Earth. If there were no mention of multiple universes or
>> hints that Urth
>>
>> is "of the past". But there are. Both the interview and text support the
>> theory that
>>
>> Urth is not Earth.
>>
>>
>> Marc is not the only highly intelligent, well-versed Wolfe fan who
>> adheres to the
>>
>> "Urth is Earth" theory. And Wolfe himself seems to give latitude for each
>> reader to
>>
>> interpret some parts of his work as they see them, not necessarily as
>> Wolfe intended
>>
>> them.
>>
>>
>> But if Wolfe's intentions matter, then, given the words of the interview
>> and the
>>
>> textual hints, I find it more likely that the "Urth is Earth" theory is a
>> case of
>>
>> readers clinging to their initial, cherished impression rather than "urth
>> is not Earth"
>>
>> being an incidence of Wolfe auctorial retrofitting.
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