(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and genesis

[Marc Aramini]

What do you think of Robert and Marie and their Bible missionary work  in
the Jungle Hut?  Cross-cyclic hijinks in the Botanic Gardens? No Christ in
their bible? A trick of the mirrors? Meschia is a symbol of renewal and
genesis but I suppose I don't take it literally - just a repopulating kind
of new man (if he is a man) brought for Ushas - he is a symbol of new life
transplanted.  Urth also I think is a nice name for a world so ancient and
old it is cloaked in antiquity and decrepit - nothing new has come yet. The
autarch doubles as God in the play, too. The roles are kind of all meshed
together.  So while some parts are literally true, I don't think Meschia is
actually an ancestor of that particular Autarch at all, he is just the
first of the new wave.


On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 5:22 AM, Lee <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote:

> >Jeff Wilson: If he's in the correct cycle but in a much latter era,
>
> >then the son of Meschia not being born yet seems like a contradiction.
>
> >Cain needs to be born before the autarch, doesn't he, esp if he's the
>
> >firstborn of humanity?
>
>
> I agree. I find much in the text of BotNS to support the idea that Urth/
>
> Briah was originally intended as a previous iteration of our Earth. The
>
> very name "Urth" implies the past. If Severian's world were a future
>
> version of Earth, wouldn't Wolfe have chosen to name it "Skuld", for the
>
> Norn of the future. I am loathe to think Wolfe chose the name "Urth"
>
> soley for the funky spelling, ignoring the meaning.
>
>
> Moreover, everything about Urth says to me "pre-Christian" society. The
>
> giant pagan "gods" running about, the barbarism, the witchcraft, the
>
> absence of a salvation route, etc. There is a Jesus-like figure mentioned
>
> in Short Sun but why is he associated with a Dionysian God rather than a
>
> Jehovian God?
>
>
> Then there is Severian. Wolfe has said he is a "Christ-like" figure. Is he
>
> the Second Coming? The Third or Fourth? That just doesn't seem right to me.
>
> Severian seems more like an imperfect proto-Christ than a later version of
>
> him . Plus, like the pre-Christian gods, Severian ends up in a
> mini-pantheon
>
> of other (false?) gods like Odilo and Thais.
>
>
> To me, Urth is a socially, historically and technologically advanced
> version
>
> of Earth. But it is a spiritually stunted version which has only advanced
> to
>
> Earth's Noah level at the time of Severian. It makes more sense to me that
>
> Urth is a previous iteration of Earth than Urth having spiritually
> degenerated
>
> and all the progress which Jesus brought having been lost.
>
>
>
> >Marc Aramini: I think the insistence Urth is a previous iteration is a
> retcon
>
> >of the Jordan interview to avoid Prostestant wrath - he isn't going to
> meet
> >Cain in the next iteration.
>
>
> We must agree to disagree, Marc. In the same interview, Wolfe flatly
> states his
>
> belief that the pagan gods were real and the ancients were in fact building
>
> temples and worshipping beings that did truly exist. If Wolfe is going to
> commit
>
> such blasphemy in one part of the interview, why would he tiptoe around
>
> fundamentalist Protestantism to the point of retconning his own work in
> another
>
> part of the interview. Surely the reality of pagan gods is more heretical
> and
>
> offensive than the fictional depiction of God breaking his Covenant.
>
>
> (also, I don't think the concept of time, in years, has any meaning in
> regard to
>
> universal iterations. I think the idea is that time, as we know it, is
> reset to
>
> zero at the creation of a new universe.)
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