(urth) 5HC

[Gerry Quinn]

On 01/09/2014 15:25, Richard Simon wrote:

>
>     Victor is described as human, albeit with unusual green eyes.  The
>     idea that he is his own mother seems simply absurd, unless, again,
>     both he and everyone else are completely delusional.  She only
>     left after he reached puberty.
>
> 1. Nobody has to be delusional, except Victor, in Shadow-Child 
> fashion. Who else has seen his mother? Old Trenchard? How reliable is 
> his testimony? Could he not have reasons for lying about her? Does 
> Victor, in fact, have a mother at all?

So you are saying Victor AND all the Shadow Children are delusional?  
Why?  Their story makes sense as told.  Nobody needs to be delusional at 
all.  M. d'F notes that she is "a poor wretched woman one hardly ever 
sees" but presumably se is seen sometimes, or was before she left.  And 
Old Trenchard claims he and she were married by the priest.

>
> 2. Everyone on Ste. Anne is slightly delusional; the real Marsch notes 
> the hallucinatory quality of the light and atmosphere there in his 
> journal, and we know from his Shadow-Child testimony ('A Story') that 
> the Children can alter the appearance of reality, even to the extent 
> of hiding two planets and their parent star from human observation.
>
> However, I am not arguing that everyone on Ste. Anne, far less Ste. 
> Croix, is a shapeshifted aboriginal. Most people on both planets are 
> indubitably human, even though one population, the people known as 
> 'abos', has forgotten its ancient roots. The Shadow Children, who are 
> in no way human, preserved some knowledge of those roots and of human 
> culture, but it was lost to the original settlers from Earth. In case 
> you missed it earlier, I am proposing that the Annese (the 'abos') 
> cannot shapeshift.
>
Victor's mother could shapeshift too, this is indicated when Old 
Trenchard notes: "She could talk to a man and he would believe her a 
girl, a virgin, hardly out of school.  But then if she did not like him 
she would become an old woman - a matter of the voice, the muscles of 
her face, the way she moved..."  Of course he thinks sge is just a good 
actress.

Of course, if Victor and his mother were Shadow Children this would 
contradict your theory.  But what of thhe green eyes?  In 'A Story' 
these are clearly associated with the human-looking abos.

>     If you want to deduce likely possibilities from odd sentences,
>     consider that Victor notes that on Sainte Anne he got some
>     information suggesting that his mother had gone to Sainte Croix,
>     and consider the illiterate woman in the cell beside him.  *That*
>     is plausibly Victor's mother; it is deduced from subtle clues, but
>     unlike the global hypotheses that turn everything upside down, it
>     does not destroy everything else in the story whichever version
>     you choose to believe and therefore it is a thing that actually
>     *can* be left ambiguous.
>
> What are the subtle clues that suggest this woman is Victor's mother? 
> Pardon me if this has been discussed before. And if she is his mother, 
> how does that help us understand anything, or move the story along?

Those are the clues.  And it's NOT essential to the story, which is why 
Wolfe doesn't bother rubbing it in with lots of clues.  It simple adds a 
bit of colour and pathos.

>     The legs could point to Maitre, or they could just be an example
>     of female artifice. It doesn't matter which, so it can be left
>     ambiguous.  If it mattered, like in your theory, Wolfe would not
>     have just left it there. (Look how he hammers in the bit about
>     abos having green eyes.)
>
> I dealt with this in my earlier reply. You're an experienced Wolfe 
> reader, aren't you? You should know your man better. Everything in a 
> Gene Wolfe story is relevant, and the more incidental it appears at 
> first sight, the more critical it is likely to be to a full 
> understanding of the story and Wolfe's intent.

I disagree.  To make everything crucial to an understanding of the story 
would result in books that are abstract puzzle pieces, not novels.

>
>     Marsch hangs his coat on the hooks on the bedroom door, AS HE
>     USUALLY DOES.  Presumably this is of some cosmic significance
>     too.  And what of the ankle straps of the man in the green uniform
>     - clearly the idea that he rides a bicycle is sheer misdirection. 
>     There must be at least one new alien species to be identified here
>     - but of course - it's the bicycles, like in The Third Policeman! 
>     One of the other men is a horse-cab driver.  People's cells mingle
>     with vehicles - Aunt Jeannine is the most advanced example.  This
>     explains the symbolism about identity and the Abos' fear of
>     technology; THEY are the true humans, unwilling to merge with the
>     metallic overlords.  The robots in the prison camps - fully
>     converted people?  You get the point.  I could add elements
>     purportedly supporting this hypothesis all day, or a hundred
>     others like it.  How fast I can add them depends on how much I
>     allow myself to ignore contradictions in the text, or assume
>     characters to be preternaturally delusional.  But I would be going
>     nowhere.
>
> Very impressive, but I doubt that you can point me to one 
> 'contradiction in the text' that negates my reading of it. Especially 
> since it is hardly mine alone, and the author endorses elements of it, 
> if not the whole.
>
According to your theory the hooks and ankle straps should be especially 
relevant, as they are so inconsequential?  So what do they mean?  Or can 
things be irrelevant after all?

The contradiction is that Victor and the Shadow Children must be 
completely and utterly insane.  And the 'abos' too, if they have 
completely forgotten they were human.  Also, humans did not in fact 
develop space flight in prehistory.

>     If everything exists to serve the author's purpose, then what of
>     everything that you are throwing away?  What of Victor's
>     relationship with his mother?  All just a load of delusional
>     nonsense, because everything is actually supposed to be deduced
>     from one sentence mentioning that a guy has a scarred head?
>
> What have I thrown away? Are you certain that you have understood me 
> correctly?
>
>
Your theory throws away everything we are told of the origin of Shadow 
Children and abos in 'A Story'.

- Gerry Quinn
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