(urth) Tzadkiel's form

[Marc Aramini]

"presumptuous", of course - sorry.  And I never gave any credence to
Jolenta's possibility as a sibling.  At all.



On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 6:59 AM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com> wrote:

> Changed my mind about the mine thing. The man apes serve the autarch and
> guard his treasure there, as the pandours in the wall at the Piteous Gate
> do, built as defense against the persumptious "throwing black beans in the
> sea" lady from offworld, as Jonas was getting at before they were so rudely
> interrupted.
>
> Severian asks Jonas about BOTH events after his return from the mine at
> Saltus, and asks how man sized soldiers could ever fight enormous beasts.
> The chains clanking in the dark, though they evoke a binding, could also be
> the chains which move an enormous mechanical thing, like the walking tower
> which Severian sees in chapter XXI or thereabouts in Citadel (don't have
> the book with me right now). In the next chapter the Autarch shows up on a
> giant elephantine steed and the footsteps make Sev think of the thing he
> awoke in the cave near Saltus. The footsteps are of a beast bound to the
> autarch's will in that chapter, and perhaps the proximity to the giant
> tower and the fact that the man-apes, the pandours at the wall, and the
> cave as a treasure  horde of the autarch, even though it seems to indicate
> a binding, is in fact a hidden last line of defense that allows the autarch
> to fight the giants with something beyond man-sized soldiers.  Thus, it is
> Baldanders'  nightmare because it will serve Severian and the Autarch.
> Perhaps his closed lipped reticence to discuss the gate and the mine
> involve the security measures of the Autarch, something he is reluctant to
> go over in detail. (First Sev sees the man-apes as enemies - perhaps all of
> the powers that the autarch binds to himself have this slightly inimical
> quality to them).
>
> Also, in hindsight it is pretty clear Jahi is supposed to be Juturna ...
> at one point in the play she metafictionally says something to the effect,
> "in real life I'm bigger than everyone!" I don't know how that didn't
> consciously register with me before.  So the talk of the demons to the
> autarch reveals Juturna's motivations and mission.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:13 AM, Lee <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >Marc Aramini: That thing under the mine might very well be one of these
>>
>> >Abaia/Erebus/Arioch creatures stirred to wakefulness. The toothy
>> description
>>
>> >of the cave formation really does match Baldander's dream pretty well. I
>> agree
>>
>> >there is very little distinction between all these guys as they appear
>> in the text.
>>
>>
>> I think we are on the same page.
>>
>>
>> >Undines are associated with Night in that first scene through Juturna's
>> interference.
>>
>> >Whether she is actually related to the Lilith like Jahi in Eschatology
>> and Genesis is less
>>
>> >clear.
>>
>>
>> Jahi is a demon and Wolfe specifically refers to Juturna as a demon in
>> UotNS so I assume
>>
>> that (and the female gender and temptress role) is your basis of
>> connection. Given the
>>
>> Biblical nature of demons, I think it is a fair guess to assume they are
>> of the same ilk.
>>
>>
>> Here is a tummy-turner: Jahi and The Contessa Carina  are played by the
>> same actress,
>>
>> Jolenta (echo of Juturna?). The Contessa is later in UotNS (on the Path
>> Of Air) linked to
>>
>> Severian's mother Catherine. Does that suggest anything about Severian's
>> ancestry?
>>
>>
>> That speculation aside, I find a not so speculative  connection between
>> the fanged demon
>>
>>  Jahi, played by a busty redhead in BotNS and the vampiric Jahlee who
>> takes the form of a
>>
>> busty redhead in Short Sun. I definitely think Wolfe is using SilkHorn
>> and his retinue's travels
>>
>>  to Urth to say something about the nature of Severian's unusual and
>> mysterious family tree.
>>
>>
>> (two of Borski's prime candidates for "Severa" are hinted at in those
>> Silkhorn travels, Merryn
>>
>> the witch and Jolenta, via Jahi and Jahlee.)
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>
>
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