(urth) barrington interview
Norwood, Frederick Hudson
NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu
Thu Oct 9 05:04:47 PDT 2014
I think you are also confusing math with its applications. Pure mathematics consists of a set of axioms, a set of definitions, and the theorems that follow logically from those axioms and definitions. The logic involved is called a mathematical proof. For mathematics to be untrue, you need a case where the following happens. You know that if A is true, then B must be true. You know A is true. But it turns out B is false.
Rick Norwood
-----Original Message-----
From: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Lee
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 7:45 AM
To: urth at urth.net
Subject: (urth) barrington interview
>Rick Norwood: Lee: In saying mathematics is universal, I mean that
>a true mathematical statement is true everywhere in the universe,
>not that everything in the universe can be expressed mathematically.
I see. This is a quite a departure from what I thought you were saying.
Within this framework, I find math to be far less universal than I
previously thought you were claiming. You are only claiming that
3+4= 7 must be true everywhere in the universe and acknowledge
that the universe might contain many things, from God and angels
to superdark matter which cannot be described by math.
Sadly, I find myself even disagreeing with that lesser statement of
universality, though only in the absolute qualifier that 3+4 =7 MUST
be true everywhere in the universe. I think the question remains open.
For example, I find it plausible (even likely?) that if you were travelling
through a black hole or experiencing the Big Bang that the laws of
physics as we know them might not apply. If so, I can further extrapolate
that the principles of math that we humans have determined might also
be rendered null and void under those conditions.
Math relies on numbers, a concept which assumes the universe can be
divided and packaged into discrete, countable units. I suspect there may
be conditions under which that is not the case. If, say, in pre-Big Bang
conditions there existed a universal state in which everything was unified
and there were no "numbers" of anything then 3+4 would cease to have
any meaning, and certainly wouldn't = 7.
>Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: I am saying that an accurate description of the Universe
>is independent of the mind in which that description takes place.
At risk of being overly argumentative, I absolutely cannot go along with this
statement. The reason being it seems (to me) an impossible statement to make.
Every thought and perception and calculation you have ever made in your entire
life has taken place within your human mind. Every scholarly article you have read
every scientific theory you have pondered and every photo of distant galaxies you
have seen has been processed entirely by your human mind. I just don't see how
you can make a statement that anything is universal, independent of the human mind
when you have never been there. You can't go outside the human mind. Every minute
detail of your understanding the universe is entirely dependent on your mind with no
way of becoming detached from it. How can you do anything outside the confines of
the human mind? It is all you (we) have.
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