(urth) barrington interview

Wed Oct 8 10:01:37 PDT 2014

You are again making the structure of math dependent exclusively on what it
tries to describe rather than on the circuitry that it runs on.

On 8 October 2014 17:44, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com> wrote:

> Since any alien species we might meet is likely to have a biology based on
> the same physical laws as ours, I expect their math will be of a similar
> structure to ours. Such a species may have different senses, etc., as has
> been suggested, but they will still be observing the same physical universe.
>
> Unless, of course, you want to go with a totally subjective reality, and I
> just can't go there.
>
> On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 9:36 AM, António Marques <entonio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm not discarding anything. I'm not saying the crow can't compute. I'm
>> saying we don't know how the crow's computation works, and specifically if
>> it is anything like our own math.
>> For the record, crows being close relatives, and octopi* essentially
>> being only a bit farther away (tho I'm intrigued by a suggestion I've seen
>> that Mollusks aren't even coelomates), I might bet that their equivalent of
>> math isn't much different from ours. But unless they evolve to express it
>> in some meta-language, we won't know.
>>
>> (*) Normally I wouldn't place this disclaimer here, but I think it's best
>> to avoid any discussion on one of my favourite plurals, and metazoan
>> phylogeny at that (we meatfolk are all so similar, really).
>>
>> On 8 October 2014 17:07, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Antonio - I think that *that* is the genetic fallacy. You are discarding
>>> the evidence of the crow because of where it comes from.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 8:38 AM, António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> The point is that no one knows how the crow does his math. The crow may
>>>> look at it in a way similar to our addition and subtraction, or in a
>>>> different enough way. Again, what we're questioning is not the universal
>>>> applicability of our math, rather its universality as a computing tool.
>>>>
>>>> No dia 08/10/2014, às 16:07, "Norwood, Frederick Hudson" <
>>>> NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> escreveu:
>>>>
>>>> > Actually, crows can do simple math.  If four hunters enter a house
>>>> and three come out, the crow can do enough math to avoid the house.  Four
>>>> hunters in, four come out, the crow flies to the house.  Twenty hunters in,
>>>> nineteen out, the crow flies to the house.  The crow can see the difference
>>>> between three and four but not between nineteen and twenty.
>>>> >
>>>> > I do not believe there is an alien race for which four (the concept,
>>>> not the symbol) is less than three.
>>>> >
>>>> > For a good science fiction story on this subject, read "Omnilingual"
>>>> by H. Beam Piper.
>>>> >
>>>> > Rick Norwood
>>>> >
>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>> > From: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Lee
>>>> > Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2014 10:57 AM
>>>> > To: urth at urth.net
>>>> > Subject: (urth) barrington interview
>>>> >
>>>> >> Thomas Bitterman: Is there an argument against the universality of
>>>> mathematics
>>>> >
>>>> >> that isn't  just the Genetic Fallacy?
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > By Genetic Fallacy I assume you mean this:
>>>> >
>>>> >> The genetic fallacy, also known as fallacy of origins, fallacy of
>>>> virtue,[1]
>>>> >
>>>> >> Is a fallacy of irrelevance where a conclusion is suggested based
>>>> solely on
>>>> >
>>>> >> something or someone's origin rather than its current meaning or
>>>> context
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > My objection to the assumption that math is universally applicable is
>>>> because
>>>> >
>>>> > math originates from the mind of one species on one planet in a very
>>>> small
>>>> >
>>>> > corner of one galaxy in a universe of a (perhaps) infinite number of
>>>> galaxies.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > As I understand it, the Genetic Fallacy would apply if math had been
>>>> found outside
>>>> >
>>>> > that original context. For example, if we found math being used by
>>>> members of
>>>> >
>>>> > another species from outside our solar system or galaxy. Or if we had
>>>> travelled
>>>> >
>>>> > to all corners of the universe and found math applicable everywhere,
>>>> not just
>>>> >
>>>> > from the perspective of planet earth.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > But currently (as far as I know) math is used only by that one
>>>> species on that
>>>> >
>>>> > one planet.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > I wouldn't claim it is impossible for math to be universal. I would
>>>> only say that it
>>>> >
>>>> > seems unlikely to me. The fact that everything we encounter can be
>>>> described
>>>> >
>>>> > mathematically seems most likely due to human limitations on what we
>>>> are able
>>>> >
>>>> > to encounter.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > In other words, we simply can't see what we can't see.  The
>>>> assumption of a cosmic
>>>> >
>>>> > universality to our mammalian-evolved perceptions and thoughts seems
>>>> unfounded
>>>> >
>>>> > to me.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Of course, if we are talking Special Creation and math as a special
>>>> mastery for
>>>> >
>>>> > understanding the universe, as bestowed upon us by God, then that's a
>>>> different story.
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
>
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