(urth) resurrecting a 2002 thread that posits an alternative lineage for Sev

António Marques entonio at gmail.com
Wed Oct 8 09:28:46 PDT 2014


We're all defective pots.

Based on what you say, I'd wager that you do have faith but find the
theology intellectually abstruse and some so called divines ethically
questionable. To the former I can only say that maybe, like some kind of
reverse Wittgenstein's ladder, any durable culture has to be upheld by
seemingly uninterpretable mysteries (at least, I know of none which
aren't). To the latter, well, I'm blessed to live in an environment where
the clergy are wise enough not to try to tell anyone whom to vote for (I
hear stories, now and then, of some priest who may have done so, but
they've always come from people who I know never go to church).


On 8 October 2014 15:08, Norwood, Frederick Hudson <NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu>
wrote:

> I was raised a Christian, have read the Bible from Genesis to Revelations,
> and find the teachings of Christ deeply appealing.  I attended Grace
> Fellowship Church for years, and accepted Jesus Christ as my savior.  I'm
> still His if he wants me.  I gave up Grace Fellowship for one reason (they
> said that every good Christian must vote for George W. Bush) and gave up
> Christianity for another reason (I could not make sense of it; for me to
> believe in a statement I must first understand what the statement means).
>
> As for faith, according to Paul's Letter to the Romans, faith is a gift
> from God, and he decided before the creation who would get the gift of
> faith and be saved and who would not get the gift and be damned.  Cannot
> the potter discard defective pots if He wants?  Evidently I'm a defective
> pot.
>
> Rick Norwood
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of António
> Pedro Marques
> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2014 9:02 PM
> To: The Urth Mailing List
> Subject: Re: (urth) resurrecting a 2002 thread that posits an alternative
> lineage for Sev
>
> No dia 07/10/2014, às 14:58, Lee <severiansola at hotmail.com> escreveu:
>
> >> Rick Norwood:
> >
> >> Christ was entirely God, all powerful, all knowing, able to perform
> miracles.
> >
> >> At the same time, he was all human, there was much he did not know, and
> >
> >> much he could not do.  He prayed to God, asked God to change His mind,
> >
> >> and asked God why He had forsaken Him.
> >
> >
> >
> >> This is one of the great Mysteries of Catholic dogma – and one of
> several reason
> >
> >> why I’m not a Christian
> >
> >
> >
> > I'd add to that the paradox of Free Will.
>
> To which, of course, you're aware of solutions of various kinds.
>
> This is disturbing. It implies that if what you conceive as logical
> difficulties were not present, you would find yourself a person of faith.
> Is that really so?
>
> I rather think that what happens is that *because* you are not a believer,
> *then* such tenets of religion strike you as irrational.
>
> (Tho there is the possibility that you are, in fact, religious at heart,
> but unable to reconcile that with your analytical mind. If that is the
> case, there's no need to struggle, many folks have worked out any such
> issues over the ages.)
>
> Religious belief is something that you either accept for yourself or you
> don't (you have doubts in two very different cases: 1 - you accept it but
> feel disheartened, 2 - you actually don't accept or don't know it at heart,
> but mentally you try to), and you just don't arrive at it after scientific
> consideration, nor abandon it after scientific consideration. No one
> acquires or loses faith through reason, for the very same reason that no
> one acquires or loses a romantic interest or a favourite dish through
> reason.
>
> Yes, many seem to think that faith is some kind of primitive science, and,
> of course, if it were so then one might abandon it for scientific reasons.
> And no doubt there are many using their religion like some kind of science,
> but that's like deciding that a person has a number of good qualities
> because you happen to like the person. The opposite, also to be found
> frequently, is to decide that you like some dish because current science
> says it's healthy. And there are those who think they hold some sentiment
> dearly because they put some given work into it. All these, be they true or
> false, are orthogonal to the things they're supposed to be linked to.
>
> That's not to say that belief cannot grow aided by external factors, or
> dwindle, but it remains fundamentally ruled by itself.
>
> But it may be the case that what you're saying is not that you find such
> tenets of Christian belief illogical or otherwise, but rather aesthetically
> or emotionally unappealing (as opposed to rationally unappealing). That's a
> whole different matter. De gustibus, etc, I can only say that in that case
> one can't really make a judgement based on isolated bits, for the same
> reason you can't do it with a painting. I mean, you can, it's a free
> country.
>
>
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