(urth) resurrecting a 2002 thread that posits an alternative lineage for Sev

Mon Oct 6 08:31:22 PDT 2014

Like any borderline idea, some theologians have entertained it at times,
but it has never been entertained at large, seriously or otherwise. You
can't really know what millions of different people think about all
subjects.
Now, if you're asking what powers folk Catholics ascribe to their revered
figure, then all bets are off. But even the folksiest of the folkiser will
readily tell you that any powers the saint may have are Gods', not the
saint's. If anything, saint veneration goes against the concept that all
humans are equal (by considering that some have a attained a privileged
access to God), not against the concept that all power is God's.

On 6 October 2014 15:59, Norwood, Frederick Hudson <NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu>
wrote:

>  Is the idea that some Catholics believe that Mary is co-redeemer with
> Christ a Protestant myth?
>
>
>
> Rick Norwood
>
>
>
> *From:* Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On Behalf Of *António
> Marques
> *Sent:* Monday, October 06, 2014 10:35 AM
>
> *To:* The Urth Mailing List
> *Subject:* Re: (urth) resurrecting a 2002 thread that posits an
> alternative lineage for Sev
>
>
>
> The Catholic attitude to Mary is only Catholic in that Protestants defined
> themselves against Catholics. Otherwise, it's the common or garden
> Christian attitude, from Rome to Constantinople to Nineveh or Addis Ababa
> (as so many other things that are often thought of as Catholic).
>
>
>
> On 6 October 2014 15:19, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Probably most clearly fictionally expressed in "Queen" with the fictional
> exploration of an assumption.  (I think that was the story).
>
>
>
> The same as most Catholics, I am sure.  Reverence and respect on a level
> slightly greater than that for the other saints. Mary's own immaculate
> conception is kind of a vital hint to when the changeling shows up in "The
> Changeling"
>
> There is a superstitious nature to the Saints and their areas of specialty
> in most catholic families. It might also show his frequent use of vodoo,
> which has taken the images of Catholicism and channelled something else
> through it.
>
>
>
> Deification is a Protestant over-reaction to the great respect offered to
> the saints and Mary as intermediaries on the behalf of humanity to an
> infinitely incomprehensible God.   Reverence and awe and relative closeness
> to God (compared to our own existence) does not make one a literal God.
>
>
>
> I imagine he views them much as the story of the cock and the angel from
> New Sun, though perhaps God is not as remote to them.
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, October 6, 2014, Norwood, Frederick Hudson <
> NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote:
>
> Interesting.  Using that definition I can see Protestants viewing the
> Roman near-deification of Mary as being essentially polytheistic.  What are
> Gene Wolfe’s views on Mary?
>
>
>
> Rick Norwood
>
>
>
> *From:* Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net
> <urth-bounces at lists.urth.net>] *On Behalf Of *António Marques
> *Sent:* Monday, October 06, 2014 9:56 AM
> *To:* The Urth Mailing List
> *Subject:* Re: (urth) resurrecting a 2002 thread that posits an
> alternative lineage for Sev
>
>
>
> Not necessarily. Pagan has meant 'polytheist' from early on.
> Non-polytheists might be hereticals, infidels, whatever, without
> necessarily being pagan.
>
> The idea that the Roman Church is 'pagan' is part of Protestant folklore.
> No one else pays any attention to it.
>
>
>
> On 6 October 2014 14:23, Norwood, Frederick Hudson <NORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu>
> wrote:
>
> The word pagan means: neither Christian nor Jewish.  (The earlier meaning
> -- a rustic, a rude fellow, not schooled in the ways of the big city -- is
> obsolete.)  Therefore Catholics are not pagans.  There may or may not be a
> continuous progression from the pagan to the Christian, but as soon as you
> say "I believe in God, the Father, almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and
> in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord," you stop being a pagan.
>
> Rick
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net
> <urth-bounces at lists.urth.net>] On Behalf Of Lee
> Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2014 8:28 AM
> To: urth at urth.net
> Subject: (urth) resurrecting a 2002 thread that posits an alternative
> lineage for Sev
>
> >Marc Aramini: when I was a young boy was not that he was a normal person
> but a Christ.  The pagan gods are
>
> >the unnatural creatures in New Sun whose mythologies are incorporated and
> transformed into Christian stories
>
> >[such as the flood and the story of Genesis].
>
>
> I would mention that the pagan gods of earth are actually of the MOST
> natural origin; things such as earth and sky
>
> and ocean and weather. More advanced religions serve a function only in
> more advanced, i.e. civilized, urbanized
>
> societies.
>
>
> Perhaps calling Severian a pagan god was an oversimplified and misleading
> analogy. My usual way of describing
>
> the analogy is as a demi-god, akin to the half-breed Greco-Roman heroes.
> Like Severian, they were born not
>
> knowing their true parentage and unaware of the source of their superhuman
> abilities and skills.
>
>
> >While clearly Wolfe loves playing with mythical creatures, the importance
> of his Catholicism to his works shouldn't
>
> >be understated.
>
>
> I think you are seeing a disconnect which Wolfe does not; i.e. the
> importance of paganism to Catholicism shouldn't
>
> be understated. The idea that Hercules serves as a prototype for Jesus
> certainly doesn't originate with me.
>
>
> >Antonio Marques: That is, Christ's ability to perform miracles wasn't in
> any way different from that of his disciples,
>
> >who also performed them through faith in God.
>
>
> I think this is a good observation. Later Christian saints also are known
> to perform miracles through the power of faith.
>
>  In contrast to Jesus, Severian had some very devoted and faithful
> followers as The Concillator. He had a cult, The
>
> Pelerines, who were completely devoted to the reverence of the Conciliator
> and who were even in possession of the
>
> Claw. None off them appeared to have any  hint of the powers Severian
> channeled from the New Sun.
>
>
> >Matthew Weber:   Christ is a hypostasis of divinity and humanity.  It's
> correct to say that his power is not magical...
>
> >... Insofar as Wolfe is an orthodox RC, it can be assumed that this is
> what he believes as well.
>
>
> On his own Catholicism, with regard to his writing, Wolfe says of himself
> (in the Larry McCaffrey interview):
>
>
> >I am a practicing Catholic, although I don't think that designation would
> give people much of an idea about what my
>
> >beliefs are. People have a very limited, stereotyped view of what it
> means to be a Catholic.......
>
> >.....I certainly don't dismiss religious or other mystical forms of
> speculation out of hand. I read it and try to make my own
>
> >judgments about it. And in The Book Of The New Sun I tried to work out
> some of the implications of my beliefs.
>
>
> >Marc Aramini: Yes, I am quite sure Wolfe subscribes to the whole "one in
> being with the Father" creed - Christ is fully human
>
> >and fully divine (a similar paradox to the whole three in one, one in
> three theological parsing - we aren't dealing with
>
> >Arianism or Gnosticism in Wolfe ... oh wait, maybe sometimes we are ....)
>
>
> I think this is a good discussion. In deciding whether Catholicism is
> separate from paganism or is part of a continuous
>
> progression from it, I think there is sort of a Necker Cube effect going
> on. The picture changes, depending on what
>
> perspective you are viewing from.  My sense is that Wolfe is aware of this
> Necker Cube and plays with the different
>
> perspectives in the course of his writing.
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