(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-Clone

[Michael Thayer]

>David Stockhoff: As Jeff suggests (and this is the simplest path I can
envision), three coffins have dead Severians and two do not yet have dead
Severians.

Or could it be the opposite: two clones have been released, and three are
still yet to be awakened/activated. In this novel, an empty coffin may very
well signify resurrection rather than eventual death, and so the two empty
coffins could be those abandoned by the two Severians that have exited the
mausoleum, gained the throne, and gone to their extrasolar trial (i.e., the
two Severians of which we are told on pg. 406 of Citadel), leaving the
three closed coffins housing Severians who have yet to rise and exit the
mausoleum (note that pg. 12 of Shadow describes the three closed coffins as
"waiting" on the shelf - waiting for what?). I know that Jeff's theory that
the clones have already participated in the drama and are now dead explains
why they are housed in a mausoleum, while my theory does not, and so I view
both theories as good ones worthy of further exploration.

>David Stockhoff: Are they truly clones or are they time-clones? Or
eidolons?

That's what's so confusing -- Wolfe gives us (1) clones, (2)
alternate-time-traveling-versions, and (3)
computer-hologram/eidolon/aquastor versions.  Three independent ways to
duplicate an individual. (Unhelpful but interesting tangent: this presents
the possibility of the existence of an eidolon of a clone of an alternate
timeline Severian, or an alternate timeline version of an eidolon of his
clone, etc.) I think Jeff and I have been thinking of the five Severians as
literal biological clones (Jeff, I don't mean to speak for you, please
correct me if I'm wrong), but maybe the theory works better if the five
coffins belong to five alternate-timeline Severians, all housed in the
mausoleum which is dislocated in time and reachable from each
alternate-time.

>I could have sworn Severian died in BNS too, but not so definitively
as when Sidero (I think) kills him. I can't recall the event and I'll
have to look for it.

Are you thinking of the avern battle with Agilus? I think a common
interpretation is that Severian died and came back to life in that scene.

>David Stockhoff: I am not even sure the Severian of UNS is the same
Severian as BNS, or that Severian really did pass the test in UNS.

I think a healthy skepticism about whether the narrators of UNS and BotNS
are the same version of Severian is fair, but I don't know why you question
whether he really did pass the test in UNS? I'm intrigued -- what makes you
doubt that?

>Jeffrey Wilson: I recall we are told that metal has become rather more
precious in Sev's time. The mausoleum may be signified as out of that time
by the unstolen funeral bronzes, perhaps similar to Valeria's metal trimmed
dress.

Interesting observation. I think we should gather all the evidence and
really try to figure out if Wolfe included the clues necessary for the
reader to conclude that the mausoleum is temporally dislocated. I'll be
working on that - any thoughts would be appreciated.

>David Stockhoff: Who built the mausoleum? Severian? Typhon? Ymar? Inire?
Gene Wolfe? Was there ever a family who had those arms---one with actual
women and children?

This is a central question.  I have no idea.  If it was built by the
Commonwealth as a sort of matter of course at the end of a different
(failed) Severian's life to house his remains, then what is it doing in the
necropolis when our Severian is a child?  Again, I don't see why it would
be there unless it was somehow dislocated in time, or time-travelers (those
who walk the corridors of time that we are told on pg. 406 of Citadel
manipulate Severian's second journey to the throne - I think this is
Inire/hierodules, and possibly the undines as well) rebuilt it there.  I
think the mausoleum could have been put there by someone who intended
Severian to find so that it would help shape his path and better prepare
him for his trial so that he would bring the New Sun.


On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 10:33 PM, Michael Thayer <michael.o.thayer at gmail.com
> wrote:

> >David Stockhoff:  The mausoleum is the nexus of the various Severians,
> and
> it is he himself he might see if he looks over his shoulder.
>
> I don't disagree with this statement at all (in fact I'm very fond of it),
> and I certainly think you and I are on the same page (and not just
> literally page 12 of Shadow!) -- but isn't it a bit fuzzy?  In what way --
> in terms of plot mechanics -- is the mausoleum the nexus of the various
> Severians?
>
> The assumption behind the statement is that there are five various
> Severians, one for each coffin, right?  But surely these various instances
> of Severian do not walk the same time-strand/universe.  Instead, they exist
> in alternate time-strands/parallel universes.  We know this, textually,
> because we are expressly informed of at least two such alternate/parallel
> Severians --  "then those who walk the corridors walked back to the time
> [the first Severian] was young, and my own story . . . began" Citadel, 406.
>  The mausoleum suggests strongly that there are five such Severians (we are
> told of two of the five (Citadel 406), just as we are told two of the five
> coffins are open/empty (Shadow 12)).  But why would the mausoleum in the
> second/narrator Severian's necropolis house the five coffins for five
> alternate/parallel Severians if four of the five Severians do not exist in
> his universe/time-strand?  Given the two alternate time-strand Severians we
> are told of, the two of five open coffins in Severian's mausoleum, the
> Botanical Gardens, Master Ash's Last House, and the numerous references to
> time in the mausoleum scenes (Shadow 12-13, 21-22), I think we should
> seriously consider the possibility that the mausoleum is dislocated in time
> and may be entered from all five alternate universes.  I don't know if you
> meant it this literally, but, as you say, "the mausoleum is the nexus of
> the various Severians."
>
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