(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 111, Issue 17

[Lee]

>Andrew Mason: Though one might argue that Hoof and Hide are Silk's sons in a way, 
>by adoption, since they call the Rajan 'Father' although, as becomes clear, they 
>don't really think of him as Horn.

I think Marc would agree. I still get the impression, even after a recent re-read,
that some of Horn still remains at the end. But surely the character is mostly Silk.

>The Rajan says towards the end that he asked Greater Scylla how to contact
>the Mother, so he could find Seawrack again, but 'would never have used it
>while Nettle was alive'. Yet at the end, though Nettle is alive, he does
>use it - I would take  it because he no longer sees himself as Horn and
>therefore no longer considers himself married to Nettle. That would support
>the idea that it is as Silk that he finally makes contact with Seawrack.

Also, toward the end, Remora seeks a confession from SilkHorn, in regard to
whether he has had sex with Nettle since his return. He has not, though some
excuse is used rather than the truth obvious to everyone else which is "I am
no longer Horn (or fully Horn)". 

Remora hems and haws and waffles a bit on the ssue. Probably for the best but..hey, 
then again...Almost as if SilkHorn had a choice to make on his identity, and by choosing 
his future with Seawrack and not staying with Nettle, he is choosing to be Silk. 
Or is it just acknowledging the truth of him being Silk without really acknowledging it? 
I dunno.

>the Mother turns out to be in some sense the sister of Greater Scylla on Urth, and the 
>Whorl goddess took her name from Greater Scylla, to whom she had dedicated herself. So, 
>even without a genetic connection between the two, the link between Scylla and the Mother
>is not a pure coincidence. As for how the Mother and Greater Scylla can be sisters, there 
>are some hints in _New Sun_ that the monsters came from space - so they may either have 
>come from Blue, or come to both Blue and Urth from their original home.

We humans are locked into sexual reproduction and we consider those simple animals which
can do both sexual and asexual reproduction as far beneath us. But I think Wolfe is
trying to call our attention to the idea that the superhuman ancient gods could reproduce 
both sexually and asexually and that our prejudice on the superiority of sexual 
reproduction is a false bias.

I take the mythological underpinnings found in the Sun Series quite literally. Perhaps too
literally, but I very much think The Mother on Blue must be a reference to Echidna, the 
mythological "mother of all monsters", including mother to mythological Scylla. I find
the Echidna worship found in Gaon to support this. What other purpose to the story could
it serve?

In BotNS, Abaia is routinely refered to as "he". Undines are his "brides". But how does
this relate to Great Scylla on Urth and the "abaia"-clad women figures growing from her back?
What is the relationship between Abaia, Echidna and Scylla (not to mention Typhon the 
mythological "father of all monsters")?

In my view, Wolfe is saying, we (or the ancient) humans inaccurately put our own gender and 
family labels on the pantheons of ancient deities.  But in reality we don't have the vocabulary 
or personal experience to understand the relationships that giant sexual/asexual beings
would have amongst themselves.

>I agree that Seawrack is in some way like Juturna, but Juturna's own status
>is a bit unclear.  At one point she insists that she is human. Greater
>Scylla produces images of women to speak to the Rajan and Whorl Scylla, but
>later he seems to say that the undines are something else: 'There are women
>in that river, women who swim up from the sea. I do not speak of the
>feignings of the sea goddess, but of real women.' I would take it that the
>undines are descended form women of the drowned cities.

I don't know. It might be a way to distinguish the female figure that rises from the ocean
and talks to Horn with The Mother underneath, from detached female forms like Seawrack,
Idas and other undines who, being detached, are independent beings and thus, in a sense, 
human despite their asexual genesis. Did Seawrack and Juturna have navels? Heh. That might
decide it.

I find it a bit maddening that Wolfe continues to hint at this (alternate?) path to godhood,
which I think might best be called the "Baldanders Path". He continued to grow from  being
a small man to a giant man and  eventually to such a monstrosity that only the sea could 
support him. Wolfe seems to suggest a similar path from little Cilinia to Great Scylla. Somehow
Godlings on the Whorl are meant to suggest this path also.

My best guess is that this connects to hints in the BOTNS that all the cacogens, Inire, Tzadkiel, 
Barbatus, Famulimus, etc. are all from original human stock who became mutated in the diaspora 
before returning in altered form, to Urth. I especially note the hints that Barbatus and Famulimus
(and Apheta?) had a water phase in their evolution.

Apheta says she is the "larva" of Hierogrammates.  Tzadkiel has a "son" named venant? What do these
really mean? Like the relationship between Typhon, Echidna, Abaia and Scylla, I don't think we are
meant to fully understand.