(urth) silk, the dancing toy, gods in the tunnels

[David Stockhoff]

Severian, for example, is totally a clockwork figure---but not forever, 
since he becomes a god. Silk too may be freer in Mainframe than in his body.

On 8/24/2013 1:12 PM, Daniel Otto Jack Petersen wrote:
> 'He realizes that he has very little freedom and it is all set up.  
> However, Mamelta is swallowed by the giant fish, and I think this too 
> is a symbol - that Kypris is subsumed by something far greater than 
> herself, so that the englightenment, which Silk misinterprets at least 
> once and possibly twice, serves the Outsider in the final analysis 
> even if Pas and Kypris, the male and female voice, set it up as the 
> spark that would start their little clockwork plan in motion, like the 
> dancing toy controlled by Mother.'
>
> I think I agree with this.  I don't think that Silk being shown in 
> various ways to be a 'clockwork figure' is meant to convey that he 
> definitely is and always will be.  I think it indicates that *some* 
> forces have that in mind for him as part of their master plan, but 
> that the Outsider actually liberates Silk out of this simplistic 
> pre-determinism into a responsive sort of agency as part of a 'greater 
> plan' than the schemes of gods ontologically 'smaller' than the Outsider.
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 4:45 PM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at yahoo.com 
> <mailto:marcaramini at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>     By now everyone know I actually think Wolfe creates symbols and
>     "metaphors" that are actually extremely literal.  Thus, Shadow
>     Children riding Marshmen is the same as Shadow Children riding a
>     man named Marsch (his name is misspelled in my copy as Marsh in
>     the title "A Story by John V Marsh", which I feel might be
>     intentional even if changed in later editions by copy editors).
>     I've always felt that Silk felt particularly manipulated, and that
>     this prompted his suicidal thoughts.  Kypris is equated with
>     mother, Hyacinth, and Mamelta in his dreams.  I want to talk about
>     the dancing toy that his mother makes move for him - I think this
>     is a symbol of Silk, and that "mother" calls the shots.  When he
>     is enlightened, that female dove voice he hears has always
>     resonated, in my mind, with Kypris, and when mamelta is awakened I
>     have always posited that her claim, "We will be lovers" is not
>     from Mucor (who was insistent that no sex with Silk would occur in
>     their first meeting) but actually from somewhere else.
>     It is Mother who makes the little toy dance, it is Kypris who
>     calls Silk to join with her and Typhon in mainframe, it is Kypris
>     in Hyacinth that compels Silk to love a prostitute at first, and I
>     think it is Kypris' voice in the enlightenment (which can have a
>     physical cause and still be serving the Outsider, just as the
>     castle in the sky is a tent full of hot air in New Sun - it has a
>     physical cause, even though Crane's explanation seems absurd,
>     training us NOT to look for it).
>     I think that the rather odd naming of the dogs in the tunnels as
>     gods is indicative of exactly what it implies literally: the gods
>     are in the tunnels - the sleepers behind the seals of Pas.  Before
>     his probably suicide attempt, Silk indicates that he is aware of
>     his origins now and that he learned them in the time down below. 
>     While we can say this is just a statement about humanity and the
>     whorl, I think it is personal - he realizes that the things which
>     control him (Mother Kypris) are using him like that dancing toy,
>     that his enlightenment might be spurious and predetermined in that
>     gnostic universe (how quickly the chalk of Silk for Calde goes up
>     after his enlightenment - I've always felt this overdetermined
>     beginning is part of that "clock work figure" of Silk and the
>     whorl.  He realizes that he has very little freedom and it is all
>     set up.  However, Mamelta is swallowed by the giant fish, and I
>     think this too is a symbol - that Kypris is subsumed by something
>     far greater than herself, so that the englightenment, which Silk
>     misinterprets at least once and possibly twice, serves the
>     Outsider in the final analysis even if Pas and Kypris, the male
>     and female voice, set it up as the spark that would start their
>     little clockwork plan in motion, like the dancing toy controlled
>     by Mother.
>
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> -- 
> Daniel Otto Jack Petersen
>
>
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