(urth) Lupiverse(es)

David Stockhoff dstockhoff at verizon.net
Sat Mar 17 08:53:03 PDT 2012


The Victorians link the older, anonymous tales with the modern writers. 
We would have little today without them---not Wilde, Dunsany, Lewis, or 
Tolkien. I don't see much of them at their worst in Wolfe, but at their 
best---without a doubt.

On 3/17/2012 6:06 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:
> Photogen and Nycteris is definitely one of the very best.  Lilith and 
> Phantastes are certainly meandering and oblique novels - but I think 
> they're very powerful, undiluted fantasies - he taps into some deep 
> mythopoiea and faerie in these in my opinion - lots of great 
> individual scenes and elements too - plenty of creatures and not a 
> little horror also - he's always struck me as a phantasmagorical Poe. 
>  I'd like to see whether their's a connection to Wolfe at all, either 
> overtly or unintentionally.
>
> -DOJP
>
> On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 4:08 AM, David Stockhoff 
> <dstockhoff at verizon.net <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>> wrote:
>
>     Just for the record, I can't find the "dull" MacDonald story I
>     thought I was looking for, and I can only guess it's buried among
>     the many ebook collections of his fiction on my old hard drive.
>
>     But /Lilith /certainly fits the bill, and /Phantastes /is not far
>     behind. No worse than William Morris, though.
>
>     /Photgen and Nycteris /is one of my favorites, along with several
>     others I can't locate at the moment.
>
>     On 3/16/2012 4:32 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:
>>     I plan to read it to my daughter when she's old enough---in a
>>     year or two. That's why I collected all the MacDonald I have,
>>     though there was a selfish motivation as well.
>>
>>     I have to apologize for shocking everyone, however. It wasn't The
>>     Golden Key I was thinking of at all. Had I read that as a child I
>>     might recall it more clearly than I did in fact---probably as
>>     much as Curdie---but I enjoyed it nevertheless.
>>
>>     I am not sure which story it was that struck me as stilted and
>>     dull, only that the protagonist was a girl. But I shouldn't
>>     venture to opine until I get back home and find the physical books.
>>
>>     Auden is amazing---no, not dull at all. But then he never wrote
>>     stories for children, or did he?
>>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     *From:* Daniel Petersen <danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com>
>>     <mailto:danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com>
>>     *To:* The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>>     <mailto:urth at lists.urth.net>
>>     *Sent:* Friday, March 16, 2012 3:30 PM
>>     *Subject:* Re: (urth) Lupiverse(es)
>>
>>     I really enjoy the edition where it's printed as its own small
>>     book, with illustrations by Maurice Sendak and an afterword by W.
>>     H. Auden.  (And I'll side with Auden over Stockhoff as to the
>>     story and its author's worth - but maybe the Stock finds Auden
>>     dull as well?  [If so only further proving my theory that he is
>>     inhuman.])
>>
>>     You know, I actually first read that edition aloud to my daughter
>>     when she was 5 or 6 and that was the go that really bowled me
>>     over.  David, do you know of any bairns you can read it aloud to?
>>
>>     (Does anyone have experiences reading Wolfe aloud?  I've never
>>     done that, I don't think.  Lafferty gains whole new dimensions
>>     when you do it with him - I wonder what it would be like with
>>     Wolfe.  I picture it being more of a reading to fellow adults
>>     scenario, rather than to children.)
>>
>>     -DOJP
>>
>>     On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 7:11 PM, Antonin Scriabin
>>     <kierkegaurdian at gmail.com <mailto:kierkegaurdian at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         The Golden Key was a favorite of mine growing up.  I wish I
>>         could find my copy!
>>
>>         On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Daniel Petersen
>>         <danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com
>>         <mailto:danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>             NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  It's the
>>             BEST!  You have no soul!  You are not human, you are
>>             machine!
>>
>>             (To be honest, it was on a second read that it blew me away.)
>>
>>             -DOJP
>>
>>
>>             On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 5:11 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF
>>             <dstockhoff at verizon.net <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>>
>>             wrote:
>>
>>                 Golden Key: THAT's the one. Dull, dull, dull, dull,
>>                 dull.
>>
>>                 ;)
>>
>>                 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>                 *From:* James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com
>>                 <mailto:crushtv at gmail.com>>
>>                 *To:* The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net
>>                 <mailto:urth at lists.urth.net>>
>>                 *Sent:* Friday, March 16, 2012 10:19 AM
>>                 *Subject:* Re: (urth) Lupiverse(es)
>>
>>                 Try some of his short stories and novellas:
>>
>>                 Photogen and Nycteris (aka Day Boy & Night Girl, aka
>>                 Son of the Day, Daughter of Night)
>>                 Light Princess (aka Little Daylight)
>>                 Golden Key
>>                 Translations for Novalis
>>
>>                 Lewis and MacDonald never met. But Lewis credited
>>                 MacDonald's fiction as an important element in his
>>                 conversion. He (and the reception of his children)
>>                 were important in the publication of Alice in
>>                 Wonderland. Although he was a pastor for a time, his
>>                 sermons and theology got him in trouble and he was
>>                 eventually pushed out.
>>
>>                 J.
>>
>>                 On 3/16/2012 8:09 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:
>>>                 I'm not sure which of MacDonald's books I consider
>>>                 stilted and boring, although I encountered those as
>>>                 an adult. But I loved the Curdie books my mom read
>>>                 to me when I was four or five.
>>>
>>>                 On 3/15/2012 10:51 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:
>>>>                 Phantastes was a beautiful book! Never besmirch the
>>>>                 name of MacDonald! heh heh...
>>>>
>>>>                 As someone who was raised in a relatively
>>>>                 a-religious family, I usually just ignored the
>>>>                 obviously religious bits of Lewis/Tolkien/whoever
>>>>                 else. But as I got older, I found that the
>>>>                 non-"preachy" manner of fictional Christian works
>>>>                 actually worked to explain why faith was
>>>>                 interesting and attractive. After all, here was
>>>>                 some fantasy that might be real on a certain level,
>>>>                 or at least a number of people thought so.
>>>>
>>>>                 That's a perspective I've had trouble explaining to
>>>>                 friends who had that "betrayal" reaction to Narnia.
>>>>
>>>>                 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>                 *From:* David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
>>>>                 <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>
>>>>                 *To:* The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>>>>                 <mailto:urth at lists.urth.net>
>>>>                 *Sent:* Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:42 PM
>>>>                 *Subject:* Re: (urth) Lupiverse(es)
>>>>
>>>>                 On 3/15/2012 10:32 PM, António Pedro Marques wrote:
>>>>                 > Wasn't MacDonald a good half century older? And
>>>>                 he was one of those mollified Presbyterians.
>>>>                 > But is it fair to criticise didacticism which
>>>>                 didn't pretend to be anything else? I mean, neither
>>>>                 MacDonald nor Lewis, that I know of, tried to
>>>>                 present their books as doctrinally free. At least
>>>>                 MacDonald was overt as to their didactic nature. It
>>>>                 isn't Lewis's fault if the Narnia books got popular
>>>>                 that they were pushed everywhere as mere children's
>>>>                 books without a caveat that they were had a
>>>>                 religious undercurrent. Maybe the real issue is
>>>>                 that they are popular because that undercurrent
>>>>                 pleases people, just as Praise of Empire pleased
>>>>                 others, and those who take exception to that way of
>>>>                 writing resent the popularity.
>>>>
>>>>                 Well, if it's boring, it's boring. And it depends
>>>>                 on what you mean by "didn't pretend"---as with
>>>>                 Lewis, most of his readers were children. If you
>>>>                 have no idea what you might be reading, you can't
>>>>                 know whether it's pretense or not.
>>>>
>>>>                 Certainly Lewis wasn't responsible for whatever
>>>>                 marketing got his books in my local library and
>>>>                 into my hands. But I doubt they were and are
>>>>                 popular because they are religious: rather, they
>>>>                 probably are popular because they are accessible,
>>>>                 imaginative (sometimes magical, as you said),
>>>>                 action-packed, well-written, comforting (Aslan
>>>>                 always appeared to set things right), and morally
>>>>                 nonthreatening. Girls read them as much as boys
>>>>                 did, and no parents objected to them.
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