(urth) Lupiverse(es)

[Lee Berman]

>James Wynn: Wolfe's off-hand proposition that the gods were "real" in 
>some way but not deserving of worship would only be directly tied to 
>conventional gnosticism if he double-down and stated that the gods were 
>also the direct creators of the universe or the planet. Many Greek 
>philosophers opined that their gods had been kings around whom cults had 
>formed. Paul thought they were demons or fallen angels..
 
I tend to agree. I wish Wolfe had gone a little further to explain exactly
why he thinks such creator gods were not deserving of worship. I think that 
would reveal his personal beliefs a bit more.
 
But I agree that more important here is the Sun Series text rather than his 
beliefs. And I think he acknowledges both the principles of gods originating 
from ancient kings and gods from demons/fallen angels in the Sun Series.
 
James when you discuss the gnostic principle of creator gods who are not God, 
I am assuming (hopefully correctly) that you are acknowledging the attribution
of demonic, perhaps satanic identity to the demiurge.
 
We know that the popular horned-goat image of Satan is derived from a demonization 
of Dionysus/Great God Pan. Pas, whose name is suggested as derived from Pan, is a 
clearly demiurgical figure in the creation and rule of the Whorl.
 
By tying The Outsider to Dionysus, I think Wolfe creates a similar connection of 
the Outsider to Typhon/Pas as for Dionysus to Pan. (and we know from BotNS that
TYphon has some satanic allusions to him).
 
We disagree on whether The Outsider is God/The Increate. But if you think The
Outsider created Urth, I would agree. I also agree with Daniel (I think) that
The Outsider is presented as an unequivocally good god in Long/Short Sun. This
may be why I consider the possibility that Wolfe has gnostic leanings. If he did,
and was portraying his beliefs accurately in the text, having a dark but benign, 
wrongly demonized, creator god who is very high but still below The Increate is 
what we would expect.
 
We aren't given any info on who created Urth but I think we are given a character 
who embodies the principles of the Dionysian demiurge: The Green Man. Given the
mythological figure's association with Dionysus/Pan I can't think that name of the
BotNS character was chosen coincidentally. Some quotes I found about the mythological 
Green Man:
 
>As though poised midway between heaven and hell, the Green Man is a god-demon. He is 
>a wholly masculine concept representing the spiritual power of the plant kingdom; there 
>is no "Green Woman". He bridges the gap between the ancient gods and goddesses of forest 
>and field, and the era of religious thought based on a more truly spiritual understanding
>—as distinct from merely a religious set of beliefs....The Green Man stands at the gateway 
>of the great divide between the kingdoms of animals and plants, and the alluring world of >materiality. Like Janus, the two-faced Roman god of doorways, he guards this gate and looks 
>both ways at once. [or 4 ways, a la Quadrifons?]
 
http://www.undiscoveredworldspress.com/greenman.html