(urth) Predictions Re: The Politics Of Gene Wolfe
James B. Jordan
jbjordan4 at cox.net
Wed Aug 1 17:14:06 PDT 2012
My bad. Apologies. Founders were more a mixed lot, from what I can tell.
JBJordan
At 05:09 PM 8/1/2012, you wrote:
>Actually, nobody said that, and we obviously don't know the IQs of
>anyone born before the IQ test was developed, and the "founding
>fathers" were deists (who hated and feared Roman Catholics, but hey,
>nobody's perfect).
>
>Otherwise, great comment!
>
>On 8/1/2012 4:38 PM, James B. Jordan wrote:
>>It's odd that a man who has written from a Christian, in his case
>>Roman Catholic, strongly libertarian, anti-welfare state, and
>>traditional conservative semi-isolationist perspective -- which
>>after all is and has been advocated by people with IQs well over
>>150 for centuries and was the position of the founders of the
>>United States -- is considered loony for doing so.
>>
>>People who think this way need an education in history.
>>
>>JBJordan
>>
>>At 01:15 PM 8/1/2012, you wrote:
>>>Dave,
>>>
>>>Thanks for the response. I just wanted to call out one bit...
>>>
>>>YOU WROTE: "I'm very inclined to agree with you, but at the same
>>>time it seems valid to wonder exactly how self-aware on this point
>>>a man in his 80s can be."
>>>
>>>I'm not sure if you have ever had the good fortune to hold a
>>>conversation with Mr. Wolfe, but as of last year, I found him to
>>>be the type of conversationalist that always to seem to be two
>>>steps ahead of you, ready with a quip, eager for an anecdote,
>>>anxious to counter point your point, in a wry, light-hearted, jovial manner.
>>>
>>>And that LAUGH! Equal parts genuine and sinister; the type of
>>>laugh to comfort you at the same time it sets you on edge.
>>>
>>>Not sure if any of that translates to acutely self-aware, but his
>>>opinions and outlook seems very grounded in relevant, present-day
>>>culture and not a paranoid Cold War outlook or anything to that extent.
>>>
>>>Just wanted to add that piece of perspective. I would be curious
>>>to any others who have gotten to know Mr. Wolfe how they compare
>>>my assessment, or if I am speaking from the minority on the matter.
>>>
>>>...ryan
>>>
>>>
>>>On Aug 1, 2012, at 2:04 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com
>>>> <mailto:ryan at liftingfaces.com> >
>>>> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net
>>>> <mailto:urth at lists.urth.net>>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2012 9:18 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: (urth) Predictions Re: The Politics Of Gene Wolfe
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 1, 2012, at 8:55 AM, David Stockhoff
>>>> <dstockhoff at verizon.net <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >>> Sure, of course it was a lark. And yes, one could easily
>>>> interpret each one as /half /true. Where does that get us?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> As clarification, I didn't mean Wolfe /intended/ to predict
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> "what cranky, ill-informed old people will
>>>> believe/fear/desire in 2012."
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> And yet he succeeded---in my estimation, by /more than/
>>>> half. That must mean something.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> BTW, literacy paranoia has been in vogue in the US since at
>>>> least the 1960s.
>>>> >> Since a few posters were giving varying amounts of weight to
>>>> these predictions and letting it color their impression of him,
>>>> the place my observation was hoping to get us was actually out
>>>> of such a lofty critique of what I took to be a half joke blip
>>>> of Mr. Wolfe's musings.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> ...ryan
>>>> > Understood. But what's "lofty" about making an observation
>>>> about the written word---or trying to make sense of another
>>>> reader's observation?
>>>> >
>>>> > One could easily write whole books of criticism about the
>>>> paranoid style in Gene Wolfe, and in dystopian SF in general (as
>>>> someone has already noted). I don't know what they would
>>>> conclude, but I'd be interested in reading them.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paranoid_Style_in_American_Politics
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dave,
>>>>
>>>> I was not inferring your critique was lofty, in case I gave you
>>>> that impression. I was referring more to the earlier passion on
>>>> this thread, and felt that we (as a collective of readers with a
>>>> shared interest on a common mailing list) may have been taking
>>>> his written word a bit seriously.
>>>>
>>>> My point is that he seems to be a bit flippant, half smiling,
>>>> and not all together serious in these predictions. So when
>>>> someone takes "a great interest in predictions and what they
>>>> reveal," for instance, I would hope that Mr. Wolfe's five
>>>> fingered prediction would have revealed that he is indeed a sly,
>>>> shifty, elusive prankster, even when portending to dole out 25
>>>> year predictions.
>>>>
>>>> I got the vibe that it was not being interpreted with as light a
>>>> hand as that, however. In fact, I got the impression they were
>>>> used to support a feeling of disenchantment with him as a man,
>>>> which may have gotten me riled a little bit. While he may write
>>>> from an extreme, and detailed perspective on society, he does
>>>> not seem at all to be a dystopian, right-wing loon who is
>>>> increasingly using his prose to somehow push a conservative,
>>>> anti-socialist agenda (which was also inferred on this and other
>>>> threads recently).
>>>>
>>>> Hope that clarifies my points on this matter a little bit better.
>>>>
>>>> ...ryan
>>>>
>>>> Yes it does, thanks!
>>>>
>>>> Of course, in order to reach a conclusion that Wolfe was playing
>>>> specifically with "right-wing loon"-ness, one must first agree
>>>> that he came off a little "right-wing loon"-y. If you think he
>>>> wasn't doing that, there is still that cast or quality to
>>>> explain. I'm very inclined to agree with you, but at the same
>>>> time it seems valid to wonder exactly how self-aware on this
>>>> point a man in his 80s can be.
>>>>
>>>> Ultimately, there's plenty of room between raising that question
>>>> and suggesting a conscious agenda. And I see no reflection on
>>>> the man himself---he's probably way more together than Heinlein
>>>> was in his later years. Gwern may choose to speak on that point,
>>>> or not.
>>>>
>>>> In fact, the question tends to weaken the suggestion of an
>>>> agenda, which I find quite un-Wolfe-like. Much more likely that
>>>> he was not trying to be loon-y at all, in his own mind, just
>>>> playing along in his provocative way. But people do get set in
>>>> their mental pathways with age, and maybe these moments of
>>>> candor can be revealing. As a frinstance, my dad is also in his
>>>> eighties and still very liberal in outlook, but even he passes
>>>> along silly emails that reflect a certain, er, something. (No,
>>>> setting fires out West would not be a clever way for a terrorist
>>>> to create terror. It would require a lot of work by a lot of
>>>> people and they'd get caught. And so on.)
>>>>
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>>
>>James B. Jordan
>>Director, Biblical Horizons
>>Box 1096
>>Niceville, FL 32588
>>http://www.biblicalhorizons.com <http://www.biblicalhorizons.com/>
>>
>>
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James B. Jordan
Director, Biblical Horizons
Box 1096
Niceville, FL 32588
http://www.biblicalhorizons.com
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