(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus

[Lee Berman]

>David Stockhoff: IIRC, in Wizard Knight there is an intimation that beyond the lower 
>circles lie the higher circles---that together they form a great circle. 
>And so the low (animals) is mixed with the high (Most High).
 
That does seem to describe Tzadkiel. The first time we see him, he is a giantic, island-
sized angel floating in space. The second time we see him, he is a shapeless, hairy blob.
We then see him evolve through multiple stages, back to being a big angel, though never
quite as big as an island. 
 
I wonder if there is a version of Tzadkiel even bigger than an island? Well, no point in 
that for the purpose of the story. Abaia is as big as a mountain and mountains can be a
smaller part of islands, so I think Wolfe is using geographical terms to suggest the 
relationship between these two sorts of beings.

> I REALLY think Wolfe uses an animalistic nature to mark the demonic from the angelic
>(as the Bible also does).
 
>Jeff Wilson: Er, no. Both sides display animal features at times, particularly 
>notable are the cherubim who support the throne of G-d and have lion, 
>ox, and eagle heads as well as human.
 
Well, I could argue that demons are far more often and graphically described in animal
terms but, you are right and I appreciate the correction. I guess even the Bible 
recognizes the essential kinship between angels and demons, even though they have
chosen opposite sides.
 

>He (Tzadkiel) says he retains the original form of the stock from which his race 
>was made by the vanished Hieros in their likeness. I think this is a 
>comment on man and man's image of himself and his assumed place in the 
>universe.
 
Nice catch! That certainly agrees with the currently being discussed hypothesis that
all the beings found in BotNS are originally of human stock. We may note that the
Megatherian's large form is not human, but rather as beastie things.
 
>Antonio Pedro Marques: I'm reminded of 'I, Cthulhu'.
 
Okay! Well Neil Gaiman acknowledges being greatly influenced by Gene Wolfe. And of course
both were influenced by Lovecraft.
 
>Sergei Soloviev: I said that in the BoTNSand UoTNS (in the text!) no discernible human emotions 
>are attributed to the personages who are presented as aliens - first of all, Ossipago, Barbatus 
>... (who are "explicitly" presented as aliens), but also to sea monsters, to walking statues, to 
>Cumaean - and to Inire, and Tzadkiel - (in its version of Zak as well) - and Apheta -

I disagree. Well, I supposed the walking statues don't show any human emotion and we never see Abaia. 
But all the others do seem to have feelings. In many ways they are more "normal" human-like in their 
emotions than crazy Hethor. B and F are calm, serene people but I think emotion is shown when they bend 
their knee to Severian. Also they always express joy to see him. Inire shows some emotion in the 
episode with Domnina and his letter to Severian expresses great joviality. Tzadkiel shows less emotion
with each successive incarnation, but he/she still has some. And as Zak he demonstrates fear, anger and
affection. Apeheta is pretty calm and serene like B and F but in contrast she finds Severian to be 
disgusting and horrible. Quite beneath her, though she gains enough respect for him by the end of their
encounter to admit her disgust to him.
 
> Jeff Wilson: by the way, the "old name" corresponding to Hethor I think is just 
> "Hector".

>David Stockhoff I.e. - reference to Earth and its culture. A VERY old name. I wonder if some attributes 
>are shared ....

I don't get this. What resemblance does Hethor have to the Trojan Hector who was a brave and noble prince
and warror? I don't think WOlfe would pick this name just for the heck of it. 
 
(I did find one obscure reference to a Hethor who was sort of a demonic magistrate called an "Astra". his 
term started around 50 B.C. and lasted 140 years. Not especially interesting though. 
Switch to Plain Text to make this legible: http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA270&lpg=PA270&dq=hethor%20astra&sig=4KjPWjyps4WuczUPJ9WdvDltEoc&ei=ycCmTr-8BafL0QH1_92oDg&ct=result&sqi=2&id=zqcXAAAAYAAJ&ots=WmkyCYgzfz&output=text)