(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus

[David Stockhoff]

On 10/22/2011 9:27 PM, Lee Berman wrote:
>> David Stockhoff: Ultan is so tall I can't imagine Cyriaca being related to him. Inire is so unimaginable (dark? small? old?), I can't imagine Cyriaca being related to him. So I'm stumped, but there is definitely something there.
>
> Yes, but if the Inire as Dionysus idea is correct, we can't rely on
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> "normal" expectations for human size and reproduction consideratons.
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> Consider the example of Semele, mother of Dionysus. She was killed because
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> she forced her lover, Zeus, to appear to her in his true form.
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>
>
> Consider the lessons we are given about shapeshifters in Foila's story
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> and Zak on the ship. They can appear in various forms and sizes. But
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> there is always something (and not always the same thing for all
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> incarnations) to mark them. It could be a gold ring or brown, bird-like
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> features. It could be a hairy, monkey-ish appearance or the mysterious
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> clues that allows Severian to recognize the giant handsome guy and the even
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> bigger angel creatures as Zak/Tzadkiel.
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>
>
> If the appearance of Inire represent pinched off pieces of a larger being,
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> why can't they be of different sizes and shapes, as we see in the Tzadkiel
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> example? (and if these god/angel/demon creatures were originally of human
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> origin, it helps explain the DNA problem, as someone else noted). And the
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> shapeshifter clues are multiple- small bent and twisted and/or monkey-like
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> and/or having obscured face/eyes and/or a creative artistic bent, and/or
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> red hair etc. The identity mark for Father Inire is a constellation of
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> traits not just one.
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>   

This makes a lot of sense, but it also strikes me as just too deep. Too 
religious; too revelatory; too steeped in "lore."

I think with mythology one runs the risk of seeing patterns everywhere, 
because mythologies are webs. Wolfe knows this and takes advantage of 
it, but usually he selects threads. Inire as a mass of contradictory 
traits is a brilliant idea. But it's huge! Can the text support it?

>> One way out may be that Inire is the "uncle" of every little girl
>> who knows him. Inire knows all the little girls at court; therefore,
>> Inire is the "uncle" of every little girl at court.
>
>
> I do agree with this scenario. But it ignores the creepy undertones of
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> the Thecla and Domnina story. Wolfe openly blends Britsh literature and
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> Greek mythology in The Boy Called Frog. Why not the same with Father Inire,
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> blending Lewis Carroll with the greek gods (and fallen angels) who just
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> can't seem to stop their lechery toward young human maidens?

Oh, I don't ignore that at all. There are uncles and then there are 
"uncles." Make of it what you will!

>
>> Anyone who deals in rare books knows the Librarians. There are very
>> few Librarians; therefore, anyone who deals in rare books knows Ultan.
>> Anyone who knows Ultan may know his boss Inire. Inire most certainly
>> deals in very, very rare books. Therefore, Cyriaca's uncle knows Inire,
>> at least.
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>
> Yes, and Dr. Talos could have overheard conversations of Baldanders with
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> B, F and O. Etc. I am not arguing that these sorts of explanations are
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> impossible or improbable or unlikely as Gerry might say.
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>
>
> I guess it's just that I can't really consider them real explanations. They
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> have been devised not previously to explain mysteries but solely as counter-
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> arguments against Father Inire-Dionysus. Maybe they are a way of saying the
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> knowledge of Dr. Talos and Cyriaca's uncle just aren't mysterious.
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>
>
> But to me they are. And given a choice between a collection of unrelated post
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> hoc arguments to explain each mystery away or one kinda cool (for me) theory
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> which explain these and many other mysteries and ties the whole Sun series
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> together, I hope it can be seen why Father Inire theory retains its appeal to me.

Certainly. But even mysterious explanations need to acknowledge and be 
grounded in the everyday likelihoods that Wolfe also builds into his 
stories. There just cannot be so many top-notch rare book dealers in 
Nessus that a very knowledgeable one can remain anonymous.

BTW, it occurs to me that Appian is another dealer in rare books: it is 
he who displays the human leather-bound book to Severian. He may be a 
better candidate for uncle to Cyriaca; after all, she may have no idea 
she is the Autarch. And he would know firsthand all those stories.