(urth) Urth-Earth links

[Jeff Wilson]

On Tue, October 18, 2011 14:01, Lee Berman wrote:
>
>
>>larry miller: It was always my understanding that there were many alien
>>beings on Urth and part of Severians unreliability as narrator was his
>>inability to distinguish them from other beings.
>
> Yes, but I think the question is whether these aliens are entirely a
> product
> of evolution on other planets or whether they are humans who left Urth in
> earlier waves, mutated, evolved and are now returned.
>
>>Marc Aramini: I think the Vanished People and the inhumi are man and
>> their
>>modifications of themselves. Tree genetic template + mankind = vanished
>> people,
>>etc.  The tree integration is simply a modification of man and the lower
>> animals.
>>But that's just me I guess.
>
> I think the model makes sense. The thing is, if this story is going to
> retain a
> semblance of Judeo-Christian relevance, I think a human occupied universe
> makes
> some sense. Nobody really wants a green blob or crystalline structure
> Jesus
> (well at least not Gene Wolfe, I guess).
>
>
>>Jeff Wilson: I'm not seeing any evidence the undines are squeezed off:
>> Idas and
>>Juturna seem to have distinct personalities.
>
> So, I would say, does Tinkerbell Tzadkiel and it seems likely she was
> squeezed off.

Tzadkerbell and the Captain have different responsibilities and moods, but
both are pretty indulgent to Sev. Plus, they acknowledge they are divided
from the same greater being. Juturna and Idas also have much more
distinctive names than Zak and Tzadkiel.

> Do you have any theory on what was going on with Great Scylla and the
> small army of
> presumably detachable women that seem to be growing from her back?

I still haven't gotten around to those, but it's clear to me from the list
chatter that the Short Sun books have numerous continuity conflicts with
the New Sun books.

>>The pandours also seem to be undines, and their armored state heavily
>> suggests they are
>>either few in number or individually valuable or both, rather than
>> pinched off a
>>mountain-sized mass at need.
>
> Well, I think we agree that the pandours of Erebus are akin to the undines
> of Abaia,
> pinched off or not. But since we don't see them in action, the armor could
> be a mostly a
> literary device to show they are warriors (as their pale skin is to show
> they are from
> the south/antarctic).

How do we know they are Erebus'? Don't his overtly attested forces come
over the ice onto the land like light infantry? The pandours are heavy
marine forces.

I don't see that skin color supports their Ereban origin. Fuegians would
have to sit at the back of an Alabaman bus, there's no Antarctic natives
to judge by, and arctic indigines like Sammi and Inuits are also darker
than the average caucasian. Maybe if they are white like cavefish from
living in Ereban darkness under the ice or even in some of his lava tubes.

> On the other, it may be that the pinching off process isn't quite a snap
> for megatherians
> as Tzadkiel makes it appear.  If Seawrack is a pinched off agent from the
> Mother (and I
> know that isn't a certain thing) it would seem The Mother decided it was
> more expedient to
> use the already created siren after her arm got shot off, rather than
> create a new one.



>>Juturna could have been equally likely as Jolenta to be expelled from
>>the witches for being too lustful (she only wants the humans' love,
>>recall) and fallen in with the Abaians.
>>Or she could have returned to her original family, the Abaians. It is
>>very suspicious that Dorcas is seen to revive when she is put in the
>>lake water, that the boatman has such a long life in frequent contact
>>with the water, and they previously lived in a neighborhood surrounded
>>by the river on three sides.
>
> I think this is an interesting theory. I especially like the observation
> of the
> riverine nature of Dorcas and her husband's house. It kinda feeds into my
> own
> theories actually.

Their house and neighborhood is also covered with green growth, like the
green of the undines' hair, the Green Man's pond scum, and the giant
sloth's coat at the Well near the fountain, though that is a thematic link
rather than a continuitous one. Still, a pretty soggy outfit in moist,
sultry company.

> There are three old boatmen who all seem to have a special interest in
> undines.
> One is Dorcas' husband. Another is on the dock after Severian is rescued
> from drowning.
> The third is Maxellindis' "uncle". I suspect all three are (essentially)
> the same person.

Agree on the first two. The interest in undines doesn't mean they are the
same person, essentially all boatmen would have an interest in undines
since their profession puts them in a place to encounter them most
frequently.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >
A&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab
< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >