(urth) Faterh Inire

Thu Oct 13 18:47:21 PDT 2011

Your right about when the Moffats lived.  I had forgotten all about
the plane  I think your dead on regarding the nature of the Botanic
Gardens. Father Inire built them and each garden seems to be a
seperate pocket universe containing different time periods.  Maybe the
 plane just phases in because it will one day fly over that area
preserved in the garden, like interference in whatever signal is
carrying that time forward to Urth?  Just a thought.

On 10/13/11, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:
> For one thing, it has been noted that the Moffats lived before air
> travel, yet there is a plane. This and other twists (more than I can now
> recall) make the scene more and less than it appears. Is the scene from
> Urth's past? Our "present"? Or another "iteration" of Earth/Urth?
>
> Or is it a scene of spirits called up by Inire, who built the Gardens
> and therefore has at least some control over time?
>
> On 10/13/2011 8:21 PM, larry miller wrote:
>> Dont worry about sounding argumentative, this is a discussion group
>> after all.  Robert and Marie are most likely the real missionaries
>> Robert and Marie Moffat who went to Africa.  As you noted Isangoma is
>> an african name (zulu for sorcerer), therefore Isangoma is probably
>> one of thier students.  These people existed during our time so how
>> could this be Inire? And if it is him what would he be doing in Africa
>> learning the bible?  Again if you or anyone else can answer these
>> questions or have any evidence to back up your theories post them.  I
>> am very interested in anyones take on the book and would love nothing
>> more than to examine and pursue other lines of thinking.
>>
>> On 10/13/11, Lee Berman<severiansola at hotmail.com>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> larry miller: The jungle guide is definetly Inire.  Dorcas husband
>>>> and Isangoma on the other hand Id have to disagree with you.  Isangoma
>>>> along with Robert and Marie are just people from our time being observed
>>>> by Severian and Agia.  Inire being Dorcas husband makes no sense to me
>>>> but Id love to hear any thoughts you have on why you think so.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, I think I am willing to pursue Father Inire further than anyone
>>> else
>>>
>>> in the world (except, perhaps, Gene Wolfe and he ain't talkin').
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At the risk of sounding argumentative, which I don't want to be, I'm
>>> curious
>>>
>>> about your skepticism regarding Isangoma. Sure that trio is put there for
>>>
>>> to be observed by Severian (not Agia, I think she is a pawn with
>>> different
>>>
>>> purposes). But why? And what serves to link Urth and Earth if not Father
>>> Inire?
>>>
>>> Plus we have a jungle shaman who is Inire and an "Isangoma", which means
>>> shaman,
>>>
>>> in a Jungle Hut, both with dark, metallic skin. The connection is pretty
>>> strong
>>>
>>> for me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dorcas' husband being Father Inire is surely a difficult leap of faith
>>> few
>>> are
>>>
>>> willing to make. I was willing because I was looking. None of the bits of
>>>
>>> evidence are compelling by themselves. It only makes sense, like a jigsaw
>>> puzzle,
>>>
>>> if you identify each piece with other pieces around it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So, to start, when an small, old, bent man with a wry neck says Father
>>> Inire
>>> is a
>>>
>>> small, old bent man with a wry neck I have to start wondering about his
>>> identity.
>>>
>>> When Dorcas' husband says he was there when Father Inire planted the
>>> averns,
>>>
>>> perhaps he doesn't mean he was simply watching.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just before the Jungle Hut, Severian tells Agia a Father Inire story
>>> which
>>> seems
>>>
>>> to suggest he has a somewhat creepy fascination with young girls (surely
>>> a
>>> Lewis
>>>
>>> Carroll reference, especially when paired with mirrors). I think the
>>> consensus for
>>>
>>> Dorcas'age when she first gave birth was about 15, so that might qualify
>>> Dorcas'
>>>
>>> husband as being similar in that regard.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Some other non-human literary characters who had a fascination with young
>>> human
>>>
>>> women were the ancient Greek and Roman gods. They were always falling in
>>> love or
>>>
>>> lust and changing their form so they could mate with some young ingenue.
>>> The
>>>
>>> offspring of such mixed-race matings were usually demi-gods or heroes. I
>>> think
>>>
>>> this analogy helps us to understand why Severian is inexplicably special
>>> in
>>> this
>>>
>>> story. Like a Greek hero he falls into fantastic adventure after
>>> adventure.
>>> He
>>>
>>> doesn't always win but nothing seems to be able to kill him and he has
>>> special
>>>
>>> powers which we eventually find out originate in him, not a blue jewel.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anyway, similar collections of evidence can be used to identify other
>>> possible Inire
>>>
>>> iterations.  I mentioned Hethor in a recent post.  Fechin and Ceryx are
>>> two
>>> other
>>>
>>> oft-discussed possibilities. 		 	   		
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