(urth) Undine's nature

[Gerry Quinn]

From: Lee Berman 


>Gerry Quinn: Juturna is not human, I believe, nor fish either.  She has been created or spawned by one 
>of the sea monsters.
 
> I agree. Specifically Abaia, if we may believe the dream-undines' claim 
> of being his daughter-brides.That term is surely meant to provoke our 
> instinct for incest revulsion but when you have a giant creature who can
>  reproduce asexually and who may be sequentially hermaphroditic like 
> Tzadkiel, it starts to seem a bit more natural (as incest was the natural
>  mating pattern of the pagan god pantheons).

Can they reproduce asexually?  I don’t recall that we are told how they reproduce.

Actually I lean towards the idea that the undines are created by the sea monsters as detachable organs which are used for various functions: communicating with humans, going to war, and probably reproduction too.  Perhaps there are male undines which serve as sea monster sperm, or perhaps the sea monsters directly fertilise the undines.  Abaia may of course be capable of self-fertilising, which is a form of asexual reproduction I guess.
 
> A question which seem always danced around be never addressed is 
> regarding who is Typhon's daughter really,  Scylla or Cilinia? Though 
> the process isn't clear to me, I do have a strong sense that his daughter
>  has a dual essence. Perhaps there was cloning involved but I think one
>  iteration of her died as a girl, but another entered the sea and kept 
> growing into the monster which became Great Scylla (and perhaps 
> Abaia). Some wherein Long Sun there is mention of the planet Scylla herself ruled.
 
I’ve never seen the question asked.  I’ll go with the one that was human and that Typhon had scanned.  Cilinia obviously made a bargain with Scylla, probably looking for help overthrowing her father and ruling herself, and identified with her, even seeing herself as something like Scylla, though human sized.

> I've heard that theory before but it is quite a minority opinion I think.
>  I think it has merit because there is the sexual attraction between 
> Severian and Juturna which I find a necessary requirement for identifying
>  Severa. I think the complete absence of sexual attraction, along with 
> some other evidence, rules out Merryn .

Ruling out what most consider the most likely candidate for Severian’s putative sister, simply because he does not note that he is sexually attracted to her, seems a perverse reading in every sense of the word.  (Most certainly the converse does not apply, or half the women of the Commonwealth must be Severian’s sisters.)
 
> So, I'd at least consider Juturna a likely relative of Severian's. I still think 
> Jolenta is the best candidatefor being Severa. We are conspicuously not 
> given her name when she is a waitress

What need is there for it?  Why would Severian know the name of the waitress anyway?  I doubt they wear name badges in the inns of Nessus.  And if Severian was speaking to the waitress, it would simply make it harder for Wolfe to have her appear later as another person without comment from Severian.

> and her lack of history allows
> her to have been an expelled witch. Jolenta could be a stage name and 

I think the name is probably derived from Jolie – it suggests someone who has been made beautiful, or wants to become beautiful.  Of course she might have changed it or taken a stage name.

> while she doesn't have much of a sex drive, she seems more attracted 
> to Severian than to any other man.

At the risk of encouraging you, she also apparently sleeps with Dorcas, who would be her gran.  But as a means of identifying long-lost sisters, the heuristic still seems thin.

- Gerry Quinn


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20111018/56b8b09b/attachment-0003.htm>