(urth) Undine's nature

[Lee Berman]

There is some interesting convergence of a couple threads which might warrant
a new thread title.
 
>David Stockhoff: I like the idea of Baldanders giving himself gills. But then who and 
>what is he? Why is he doomed to grow so large? Would it not work just as well if he's 
>of Juturna's race and size, and those are natural gills Sev mistook for scars? Are we 
>to believe Juturna must come up for air like a whale? What is her race anyway: is she a 
>large human who swims deep, or a fish evolved to be humanoid? Let's get our assumptions 
>straight.
 
This is an interesting new idea I hadn't ever heard before. It is a bit cryptic how
Baldanders started as a small man suddenly appearing lakeside a couple generations ago.
Could he have been like Idas then? There is some other tangential evidence to support
this theory I think, which can be seen in a further consideration of undines, below.
 
I also kinda lean against the idea.  Idas is an adolescent undine but she still appears as a tall
slender human. Moreover, the words of Dr. Talos suggest Baldanders created his doctor to 
maintain all the delicate hormonal adjustments which allow his growth to continue. Of course 
I think Dr. Talos is disingenuous on how Baldanders can breathe underwater but for some reason 
I am inclined to believe him regarding Baldanders' growth and the implication that it is unnatural.
 
 
>Gerry Quinn: Juturna is not human, I believe, nor fish either.  She has been created or spawned by one 
>of the sea monsters.
 
I agree. Specifically Abaia, if we may believe the dream-undines' claim of being his daughter-brides.
That term is surely meant to provoke our instinct for incest revulsion but when you have a giant
creature who can reproduce asexually and who may be sequentially hermaphroditic like Tzadkiel, it
starts to seem a bit more natural (as incest was the natural mating pattern of the pagan god pantheons).
 
Moreover I think the end of RttW supports this idea. Great Scylla is shown budding off a small army
of female-shaped beings. What else could this be other than a production of undine-like beings. Actually
I sort of think Great Scylla may actually BE Abaia. Scylla is associated with snakes and fish and Abaia
is an eel. Fish-snake-eel provides a reasonable connection from which meaningless gender pronouns should 
not divert our attention.

A question which seem always danced around be never addressed is regarding who is Typhon's daughter really, 
Scylla or Cilinia? Though the process isn't clear to me, I do have a strong sense that his daughter has a 
dual essence. Perhaps there was cloning involved but I think one iteration of her died as a girl, but another
entered the sea and kept growing into the monster which became Great Scylla (and perhaps Abaia). Somewhere
in Long Sun there is mention of the planet Scylla herself ruled.
 
 
>Jeff Wilson: His (Severian's) water breathing after the flood I believe is a mark of kinship with 
>Juturna, along with her ability to access the corridors of time. In fact, I would say that it is as likely 
>that Juturna is Sev's sister as Merryn. "Where is Severian's sister?" "She's right there, 100 feet tall! 
>How could you miss her?"

I've heard that theory before but it is quite a minority opinion I think. I think it has merit because there
is the sexual attraction between Severian and Juturna which I find a necessary requirement for identifying
Severa. I think the complete absence of sexual attraction, along with some other evidence, rules out Merryn .
 
So, I'd at least consider Juturna a likely relative of Severian's. I still think Jolenta is the best candidate
for being Severa. We are conspicuously not given her name when she is a waitress and her lack of history allows
her to have been an expelled witch. Jolenta could be a stage name and while she doesn't have much of a sex
drive, she seems more attracted to Severian than to any other man. (it is indirect but something about the 
buxom, red haired appearance of Jahlee in RttW seems like a clue to Jolenta and away from Merryn also).
 
 
>I don't recall anything to suggest the skull Severian finds after the flood is literally his own.
 
I don't find it a strong conclusion either but some do and my comments on the matter were meant for them.