(urth) Pike's ghost

[David Stockhoff]

On 11/29/2011 3:03 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:
> *From:* David Stockhoff <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>
> On 11/29/2011 1:49 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:
> > *From:* David Stockhoff mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net
> > Not quite. The point raised was whether anyone had any ideas about 
> which
> > head Silk replaced (and by inference what that might mean if anything).
> Yes. I thought, and still do, that it is obvious that if Piaton’s 
> gasping head is generally seen when Typhon manifests, then Silk’s head 
> will replace that one. Kypris suggests that Silk and Typhon will be 
> equal: “You’d be him. And he’d be you.” If one head were gasping in 
> the image she shows him, it implicitly contradicts that assertion.

I thought you had forgotten that Piaton's head lolled and gasped. But 
obviously I can see how “You’d be him. And he’d be you.” is ambiguous in 
the case of a two-headed god, which is why I raised the point.

Still, the "plain" meaning of that line is that "Silk would be Pas and 
Pas would be Silk.” Why? Because Kypris is talking about Pas, not 
Typhon, and because we know about the gods' ability to possess. Is there 
anything wrong with this reading?

I have already said that Silk's replacing Piaton might suggest a junior 
status, which would indeed contradict the equality and identity Kypris 
has claimed. So we agree on that. Therefore I doubt that Silk replaced 
Piaton at all. Whether he is gasping or not is irrelevant because it 
isn't mentioned; I think it probably didn't happen.

On the other hand, Silk's replacing Typhon's head corresponds best with 
his "being" Pas, since Piaton is merely a host, like the Whorl god Pas's 
banks of electronics. Pas is a scan of Typhon, not Piaton. Right?
> So, I assumed that nobody would disagree on the point of which head, 
> and I moved on to the more interesting question of what it means.

It had barely been discussed!
>
> > You answered so I played along. Here we are. You still haven't given 
> any
> > coherent reasons---you've made statements with no hints as to how they
> > are reasons.
> Do you need everything spelled out?

Let's just say "yes."
> I think my reasons were pretty straightforward to understand. I think 
> the choice of head doesn’t mean anything unless one of two things 
> happened: (1) Silk’s head replaced the *non-gasping* head, which would 
> indicate a near-total replacement of Typhon by Silk, or (2) Silk’s 
> head replaced the gasping head, and was gasping itself, which would 
> indicate Silk took on a Piaton-like role.

More or less as I said in my "rider or ridden" formulation of the 
question. But remember Pas has nothing of Piaton in him aside from his 
image, since we know Pas began as a scan of Typhon, not Piaton. Right?

That means *there is no literal meaning* to Silk replacing Piaton. It 
can only be symbolic. In fact, given what Kypris said and what we know 
of BSS, Silk is *both* rider and ridden. Pas has absorbed him and he has 
absorbed Pas. Kypris said so. Does that make sense?

If Wolfe tipped us to Silk being one or the other---and he did 
not---then we might expect and look for more of one and less of the 
other. Thus my question.
> Neither of these two possibilities fit well with Kypris’s proposal, so 
> I don’t think either of these are what he was shown. Thus he must have 
> replaced the gasping head, but not himself gasping. Hence my answer to 
> the original question.

The text says nothing about this. It says "One of them was Silk's."

But now I'm confused: You said "the choice of head doesn’t mean anything 
unless one of two things happened" and then you said "Neither of these 
two possibilities fit well with Kypris’s proposal, so I don’t think 
either of these are what he was shown." Does this mean you think "he 
must have replaced the gasping head, but not himself gasping"---your own 
answer---does not mean anything?

Somehow you have managed to argue that Silk is now a non-gasping Piaton 
without touching on anything I'd call evidence. Do you see why I pressed 
for details?
> This would indicate he had some approximation of equality with 
> Original Pas, unless Kypris was lying to him.

I agree about equality, although Kypris addresses identity, which should 
trump equality. But I don't see how Silk = Piaton creates equality, even 
non-gasping equality. Piaton was a slave. Typhon rode him like a horse 
and he helped Severian kill Typhon. Not an auspicious depiction of a 
soul-swapping transaction with a god.
> And I *think*, though I need to re-read RttW, that her telling the 
> truth fits with the story. Though of course, the opposite could 
> indicate an unpleasant interpretation for Silent/Silver Silk – i.e. 
> that he does not appear in the Sacred Windows because he has not the 
> power to do so. I must confirm on my re-read that there is good 
> evidence that Silk has a real role in New Pas.

Me too. I am honestly not even sure Silk went for the scan, although the 
existence of the Silly Silks seems to demand it.
> Anyway, I hope that’s a sufficient explication.

I have serious problems with it, but thanks for providing it.