(urth) Pike's ghost

[David Stockhoff]

On 11/28/2011 12:02 PM, António Pedro Marques wrote:
> David Stockhoff wrote (28-11-2011 15:42):
>> On 11/28/2011 9:13 AM, António Pedro Marques wrote:
>>> Gerry Quinn wrote (28-11-2011 13:10):
>>>> *From:* Lee Berman <mailto:severiansola at hotmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> Yes. There is an additional bit of evidence. In the back of a
>>>>> manteion, during a search for a working window, iirc, Silk
>>>>> discovers a painting of "Pas" depicting him presiding over an orgy
>>>>> scene of sexual debauchery. The nursing of erection(s) presents us
>>>>> with a clear clue that Pas is the Typhon that Severian meets and
>>>>> that the depiction of his tyrannical perversions is accurate.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no glimmer of recognition in Silk. No jog of memory of
>>>>> some hint in the Chrasmologic Writings or anything. Silk just
>>>>> considers it utter blasphemy, destroys it on the spot and never
>>>>> mentions it again (iirc).
>>>>
>>>> Actually this is quite incorrect. Silk recognises the painting as a
>>>> “crude mockery of Campion’s celebrated painting of Pas enthroned”.
>>>> Campion’s painting was probably created at the time the Whorl was
>>>> being fitted out (it shows bulldozers, referred to as taluses), and
>>>> in the Whorl, which is unlikely to be as prone to viral images as our
>>>> current society, would have needed some time to become famous. The
>>>> obscene parody, then, was presumably created much later.
>>>
>>> Either way, what is meant by 'recognition'? If it's that Silk doesn't
>>> recognise Typhon, there's no reason he should, he's never met him. If
>>> it's that Silk doesn't recognise himself, well, one more hint that he
>>> doesn't look like Pas (who probably looks like Typhon, and if he
>>> doesn't it's at best neutral data, not evidence for anything).
>>
>> There's no real reason, even if he is a clone, why Silk should look that
>>  much like a parody of a painting of Pas that probably was meant to
>> glorify him.
>
> There *is* a real reason. It may not be asbolute, but it certainly 
> isn't absent.


If you think there is a real reason why "why Silk should look that  much 
like a parody of a painting of Pas that probably was meant to glorify 
him" but you don't know what it is, would you at least care to say why 
you think this is true?

>
> However, the issue is whether Silk not finding Pas's likeness familiar is
> evidence for or against Silk being Typhon's clone: and the conclusion is
> that while it need not be against it, it certainly isn't for it.

I think it is completely neutral in both directions. But remember, the 
evidence in question is not "Silk not finding Pas's likeness familiar" 
but rather Silk not commenting on it (i.e., Horn not commenting, which 
really means only that Silk didn't tell Horn).

Since Silk would hardly have commented on such a thing to anyone ("By 
the way, Horn, I'm Pas," said Silk ... not!), it can't be evidence of 
anything at all.
>
>> How do we even know Pas looks that much like Typhon?
>
> I'm not sure we do, but it would be logical.

Why? Where does this assumption come from?
>
>> Would a reborn/genetic Jesus recognize his official portrait?
>
> If his official portrait had been commissioned by the original Jesus, who
> had a fixation with his likeness? I think so.

Is there any room in your theory for basic propaganda? You mean the 
"actual Jesus who would do such a thing" would want an exactly correct 
portrait, nothing exaggerated?

I grant that it's probably not Typhon's pimply skin or weak chin that 
gives him his charisma, but if you think such portraits are always 
extremely accurate I've got a bridge to sell you.

Note also that he had himself shown with two heads. So much for the 
theory that he just wanted his BLONDE face preserved forever, eh?
>
>> Any ideas on whether Silk's head (when shown to Silk as Pas by Khypris)
>> replaced Piaton's or Typhon's head? is Silk ridden or rider?
>
> Have none. The only certain part is that Pas's heads were Piaton and 
> Typhon's, not two Typhon'ss (ELS 526-7).

Up until then, yes. But the only certain information about his depiction 
including Silk is this:

The face lovelier than any mortal woman's dispersed like smoke.
In its place stood a bronze-limbed man with rippling muscles and
two heads.
     One was Silk's.

No mention of any distinction between heads whatsoever.