(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?

[Gerry Quinn]

From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com>
> Gerry:
>> Note 1: Mars or Hercules was supposedly their father - some people have 
>> found Mars somewhere I think, but I prefer the idea of Hercules as Spring 
>> Wind, because of his parentage, Zeus appearing as a flower which is the 
>> sort of thing he did.
>
> Spring Wind is Hercules? You justify this with supposed comparisons to 
> *Zeus* rather than Hercules? And you have a problem with flimsy evidence?

When I looked up the story, Mars and Hercules were given (perhaps 
incorrectly) as the two main alternatives for the father of the twins, and 
Hercules appealed to me because Spring Wind seemed semi rather than wholly 
divine. It was Spring Wind's *father* who appeared as a flower - in 
Hercules' case that would be Zeus. Since then, Andrew has convinced me that 
clearly it is Mars who is Spring Wind, as Mars was conceived by Juno with 
the aid of a magic flower, and on further study I see he is a god of 
agriculture as well as war, which again fits Spring Wind, so I have 
abandoned the Hercules hypothesis.  I don't think it was all that flimsy 
though.  And (I will just note) the main character of the story is 
Frog/Romulus. He and his immediate story and twin brother are more central 
than the details of his ancestors.


> My evidence is based on the clear patterns of the way Wolfe starts telling 
> this story. Juno being called "Early Summer" is straight forward--it is 
> just that the translator mixes up what comes from where. He assumes Juno's 
> name comes from June rather than the other way around. Rhea Silvia is 
> again a straightforward attempt attempt at translation.

If puns count as translation!  But yes, Rhea Silvia is clear as daylight, 
and Juno is perfectly plausible.


> The "spring" in Spring Wind works for "Mars" but does not fit the pattern 
> already laid down because there's no place for the "Wind" translation. The 
> telling of this story has just taken a very strange turn, and it is about 
> to get worse.

<Shrug> I see nothing terribly strange about it.  Characters' names in 
mythological stories change all the time.  Wolfe might simply have felt that 
just 'Spring' was too short a name, and settled on 'Spring Wind'.


> Of course, there is nothing in Romulus' or Remus' name or story to suggest 
> calling them "Frog" and "Fish". You are arbitrarily stating that it's 
> random noise because it doesn't fit your preconceived model.

What would *you* suggest calling them?  There is no obvious translation as 
with Juno or in particular Rhea Silvia.  Any name that sounds like Rome is 
way too obvious to be usable.  Wolfe is already planning to bring in lots of 
talking animals, so why not name the boys after animals?  [He liked that 
idea so much he used it again!]  Keeping the alliteration of Romulus and 
Remus, of course.


> I started with the assumption that Frog was a real person. Unlike you, I 
> don't just settle on the first hill that catches my eye and build 
> fortifications there.

Romulus isn't "the first hill that catches my eye".  Romulus is the clear 
and undisputable identy of Frog.  Their stories and circumstances match 
perfectly aside from the change of name (which doesn't apply to his mother). 
If you are looking for a real person, you are looking for a real person who 
for some reason is doomed to repeat the exact destiny of Romulus.

> I first profiled the name of the person who could be Frog and then found 
> Ymar sitting in plain sight. Based on same pattern, I believe that there 
> is a good chance Severian will have met Fish on Tzadkiel (the shepherds) 
> and his name will have a synonym or etymology that _could_ be translated 
> fish or a type of fish. Possibly his name will mean "sword" or a type of 
> sword. Naturally, if I find someone that matches what I was looking for, I 
> will be doubly-convinced, because he fits a profile I created beforehand.

It's not a "profile": it's just the assertion that Frog, for no obvious 
reason, must be somebody who is mentioned in BotNS, and that person can be 
linked by a chain of puns in various languages to the word Frog.  It ignores 
the fact that we already have a clear and obvious ID for Frog, and it 
ignores any relationship of the story of that person to the story of 
Romulus.


> Of course the Story of Frog has a lot of similarities to the Life of 
> Romulus. "East of Eden" has a lot of similarities to Genesis. So what?

It does't have "a lot of similarities".  It is as near identical as Wolfe 
could make it given the purposes for which he was writing.  It has so many 
points of identity that there are no reasonable doubts for disputing it. 
His mother is identified clearly by name!  He was abandoned with his twin to 
float downriver in a basket, and raised by wolves!  He slew his twin when he 
jumped over the trench marking the wall of the city they had founded!  In 
the entire history of past and future history and mythology, this is more 
than enough to identify one particular person.

>
>> Frog later claimed his heritage in the name of the Red Flower.)
>
> Red Flower is a reference from "The Jungle Books". In the Kipling's 
> stories it means "fire". In the Book of the New Sun, an easy 
> interpretation would be the sun itself. However, I'd be open to other 
> reasonable explanations.

That's from my Hercules theory, when I thought the flower was Zeus.  It 
seems likely that the Red Flower is actually a mix of Juno's flower with the 
Jungle book.

>
>> Note 2: Instead of having both twins raised first by wolves and later by 
>> shepherds, Wolfe splits them so one is raised by each.
>> I honestly don't understand how anyone can seriously assert that this 
>> story is anything other than a version of Romulus and Remus!  And on such 
>> flimsy evidence...
>
> That's because you don't really know that much about the references. If 
> you were better able to recognize them, they would be quite jarring. The 
> fact that it has so many similarities to the story of Romulus and Remus 
> only makes the parts that don't map so troubling.

Every part maps except two or three names (and in my mind they actually map 
well enough considering Wolfe's purposes).


>>> I think it is an easy call that Ymar is Frog (ymir=king=rana=frog). I 
>>> suspect that Fish will be found on Tzadkiel (the shepherds). Possibly he 
>>> will have a name that means "sword".
>>
>> That's just a chain of puns in a bunch of different languages.  I think 
>> it's random noise that means nothing.  How come Frog isn't Martin Luther 
>> King - the chain is one step shorter!
>
> You're doing it again, Gerry.  I was inclined to ignore this response as 
> unserious even at face-value. However (speaking as to a child), because 
> MLK is not a character in the books. Ymar is. He is a child in the time of 
> Typhon's reign.

Romulus isn't a character in the books either.  If Romulus could be in a 
story, Martin Luther King could also.  As could Neil Armstrong.

But anyway, you indicated that you're looking for "a real person", i.e. 
someone from the historical past of Severian's time.  I could buy Wolfe 
putting something about such a person into such a story, certainly, adding 
or modifying incidents to show something of such a person't history.  The 
question is, does such a person exist?  The obvious answer to me is no, the 
Romulus identity is obvious and there are no difficult questions raised 
about it.


>> We don't know a lot about the life of Ymar the Autarch - are there any 
>> obvious correspondences between his story and that of Frog?
>
> Raised by wolves (Torturers).

Bit of a stretch.  Anything better?  More importantly, if Wolfe had put a 
reference to Ymar or Typhon into the story of Frog, it would have been to 
tell us something about them.  What, exactly, do you think we are being 
told?

>> I can't think of any, unless Ymar founded Nessus, which seems it would be 
>> hard to justify.
>
> Why? Because you think this is _merely_ Wolfe ham-fisting the story of 
> Romulus for no narrative value, you think Ymar must be precisely like 
> Romulus in every way? I'm getting dizzy.

I'm asking - if Wolfe is for some reason telling us the story of Romulus, 
but hinting (in a manner too subtle for me) that it is really the story of 
Ymar, what is the point he is making?  So far I can't see that you have 
proposed any.

- Gerry Quinn