(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?

[James Wynn]

>> James W:
>> I think it is More likely that Abaia:-- Sees the Hierogrammates as competing powers
>
> I tend to agree; as fallen angels might contend with angels and God.
>
>> James W:
>> -- Uses the threat of the New Sun as a way to gain and control human
>> agents rather than that he is worried about the flood he will bring.
>
> Lee:
> I can't see this. The promise of the New Sun is not portrayed as a threat to humans. It is portrayed as
> a golden bounty, providing hope for a brighter day, greener plants, higher crop yields etc.

Not for *some* followers of Abaia (I extrapolate that all of them saw it 
that way). In "Urth of the New Sun", Severian meets sailors--followers 
of Abaia--who oppose Severian as the one who will "bring the New Sun and 
destroy everything". Severian concedes that this is a valid POV.

> Lee:
> Also a means of ridding the Urth of alien powers which are highly despised. The Flood/genocide
> aspect of the New Sun is very highly disguised in the original 4-book text and is only clearly
> revealed in the finale of the fifth book.

This was the case in the Commonwealth. It could not have been true for 
the Ascians. I doubt it was a common sentiment in the rest of Urth where 
the giant undersea aliens held sway (I'll avoid calling them 
megatherians for Gerry's sake although I believe that is what they are).

>> James W:
>> -- Wants to gain the Conciliator/New Sun as a follower
> Lee:
> I can only agree with this if Abaia thinks that the New Sun will actually, secretly benefit Abaia,
> et al.Surely even Abaia wouldn't think he can convince the New Sun to shrug his shoulders and
> say, "aw, Abaia is my friend, I guess I won't bring a New Sun to destroy him". Bringing the New Sun is
> the essence of the Conciliator/New Sun.

No. That's my point. I posit that Abaia is against Severian's Hieroian 
friends, but he is personally unconcerned about the upcoming flood. So 
if you tell your followers that the Commonwealth (allied to the 
Hierogrammates) is this awful Bizarroland were they want to bring a New 
Sun and destroy the world, that's a good way to get them to go to war 
with said Commonwealth.  But a power like the Concilliator is not a bad 
tool to have in your pocket --- both for his physical powers and the 
religious significance he embodies. Even Typhon wanted that (because he 
told Severian that if he bowed before him so would the Concilliator). 
Abaia is probably against the coming of the Hieros since they will be 
powerful and ruthless enough drive him out (assuming his is long-lived 
enough to see their rise).

> Abaia might know the New Sun =genocidal Flood. But nobody else
> on Urth seems to (except Dr. Talos).

See above.