(urth) Ultan's grammar quip

[Jason H]

I agree that Severian's grammatical error occurs in "Master Palaemon teaches
us apprentices, mostly", but I have a different take.

There's nothing inherently wrong with the "us apprentices", grammatically or
stylistically. People often misuse "us" vs. "we" in this setting (as James
says), so our suspicions here are raised, but Severian's use is correct. So
why does Ultan imply that he didn't learn grammar?

I think that the problem is the placement of "mostly" (although for a
different reason from what David says). It needs to be adjacent to the word
it modifies. The correct statement is "Master Palaemon mostly teaches us
apprentices." That is, the main thing that Palaemon does is teach: he
"mostly teaches". In contrast, "teaches us apprentices, mostly" really means
that he teaches different kinds of people, and most of them are apprentices
(but e.g. there might be some journeymen that he also teaches). I don't
think this is what Severian means.

Adverb placement is a common but subtle issue. It's the different between
saying "John eats only sushi" (correct), and "John only eats sushi"
(commonly used, but wrong: it implies that John does nothing but eat; he
doesn't sleep, or work, etc.).

To me, this little "grammar puzzle" Wolfe sets up is more interesting than
speculating on whether Severian's great-aunt might actually be  Baldander's
cousin. But I realize I might be in the minority here. :)

-Jason

On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 7:23 AM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

> For the same reason, I always thought the problem was with "us
> apprentices". But this is really a style issue rather than a grammatical
> one. Perhaps it was a pet-peeve of style guide writers when Wolfe went to
> college. The problem is that it uses two direct objects (which could be
> argued to be a grammatical error, I suppose). Thus, it is cumbersome and
> confusing for the reason David gave. So, it is for clarity's sake, rather
> than ignorance, that people tend to replace the "us" with "we" which is
> technically incorrect. One should avoid the pattern entirely. If "us" needs
> to be qualified and the speaker needs to clarify his membership to "us",
> there are lots of ways to speak and write the thought more clearly.
>
>
>
> On 5/13/2011 6:47 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:
>
>> I assume it's "Master Palaemon teaches us apprentices, mostly."
>>
>> I think Ultan means the word "mostly" is misplaced, making it sound like
>> Palaemon teaches "apprentices" as a subject, thus, "but not grammar."
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5/13/2011 5:15 AM, Jason H wrote:
>>
>>> Shadow Grammar Puzzle:
>>>
>>> When Ultan meets Severian, he asks him whose apprentice he is; Severian
>>> replies that Master Gurloes sent him and that Master Palaemon teaches the
>>> apprentices; Ultan replies "But not grammar".
>>>
>>> The implication of his little joke is that Severian made a grammatical
>>> error at some point since they met. What's the error?
>>>
>>> (I *think* I know, but I'm only 75% sure. So I'm curious what other
>>> people think.)
>>>
>>>
>>> -Jason
>>>
>>>
>>
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