(urth) Recent human crash-landing on Sainte-Anneþ

[Gerry Quinn]

From: "Lee Berman" <severiansola at hotmail.com>
>
>>Gerry Quinn: How do you mean, "translated"?  We have a text, presumably
>>written by VRT in
>>English, in which he uses the word "death" (or words derived from the same
>>root such as "die").  He not only uses the word, he uses it in numerous
>>contexts which
>>indicate that it means the same as it means to us (not just Shadow
>>Children die, but Hillmen,
>>Marshmen, children, trees struck by lightning, the Maitre of 666
>>Saltimbanque St.
>
> I mean "translated" in the sense of using your interpretation that abos
> are not human but
> instead shapeshifting aliens. Since you have sneered at Star Trek in the
> past I'm sure you
> likewise sneer at the idea that all aliens in our galaxy speak english.
> Thus, what we read
> is translated.

What we read is written by the shapeshifting alien who replaces Marsch in
the lingua franca of Sainte Anne and Sainte Croix, which I assume to be
English (this is not entirely clear, but the names of colonists of
non-French derivation appear to be Anglo-Saxon).  Rather obviously, VRT
speaks English, or whatever the human lingua franca is.  He can converse
with the original Dr. Marsch, who comes from Earth.

 [As for Star Trek, did they not have a device called a Universal
Translator?  One might imagine that this device is always used, but elided
from the episodes for the convenience of the audience.]


> And if shapeshifters have the ability to become haystacks or trees or
> whatever
> I can't see how the concept of death could be the same for them as for us.
> (I also assume you
> don't ascribe to the notion that aliens evolved independently into human
> form on Ste. Anne. I am
> curious Gerry, what do you think is the original form of abos?)

Trees can die (indeed, "A Story" mentions this fact)..  I don't know about
haystacks, but I imagine that a shapeshifting alien disguised as a haystack
could die too.  Vigorous use of a pitchfork should soon put an end to it.

The hypothesis I argue for is that the alien shapeshifters copied the human
explorers who later devolved into the Shadow Children.  We may as well take
the word of the Old Wise One that the aliens could originally take any
shape.  Perhaps they took animal shapes when hunting, and a wider variety of
shapes for camouflage.


>>Again, he uses it in contexts which make it plain that the meaning is the
>>same as ours.  Not
>>just his own mother, but Cedar Branches Waving and Seven Girls Waiting.
>
> Speak for yourself, please. If you would only qualify your words by saying
> "plain to me" we would
> have 85% fewer disagreements. I have made it clear that the text suggests
> to me that the meaning
> of death and motherhood to shapeshifting aliens is likely not the same as
> our own.

Where does he indicate the nature of these alien concepts of death and
motherhood?  As I have pointed out, he uses the concepts in many places
where they appear identical to the human concepts.  I cannot think of any
place where he uses them in an unusual fashion.


>>About gestation and birth there is very little room for doubt. He includes
>>a sexual interlude between
>>Sandwalker and Seven Girls Waiting.  He has Sweetmouth mock the castrated
>>Eastwind.
>
> Cedar Branches waving's lactation and birthing is probably the best
> evidence that abos reproduced in our
> human way.

Not just her.


> But VRT is only half-abo. What is the other half? Human? That makes no
> sense if abos are
> fully human in form. As Tony observes, the invocation of Dollo's Law
> implies that abos have lost some
> of their previous humanity. Lost it to become...what? Again, the question:
> What is the original form of abos?

He says "at least half abo".  I believe the question is open.  It is a wise
child that knows its own father, as the saying goes, and I do not believe
VRT can be certain of his.  If there is another half, though, it must indeed
be human.

Abos are similar to humans in form, but not quite in function.  They have
not "lost their previous humanity" - they have not quite achieved humanity.
Dollo's Law is used as analogy; it is not implied that abos have evolved in
such a way as to lose the use of their thumbs.


>>They [shadow children] are expressly *not* acorporeal (they can be eaten)
>>or indeterminate in number.
>
> Heh, well, perhaps semi-corporeal is a better term. "I for five"? I could
> probably lose a few pounds but
> I don't find myself speaking in single first person for five beings very
> often.

Nor did any Shadow Child.  That quotation is from the Old Wise One.


> "Eaten" is another word
> that probably has diffrent meaning for insubstantial shadows than for us.
> When I am walking in bright
> sunlight and I stop to stand next to my small son, my shadow swallows his.
> If shadows could talk is that
> how would they describe what happened? How would they describe it when our
> shadows separate? (birth?)

There's no indication that Shadow Children are actual shadows.  They are
physical; they eat and are eaten.  (This does not apply to the Old Wise One,
but he is not a Shadow Child.  The distinction is actually pointed out in
the text: "they won't pick your bones").


>>> The story takes on worlds of new meaning if you can shuck your own human
>>> experience a little and make
>> an attempt to understand what it would be like to be an immortal,
>> shapeshifting being who happens
>> to currently be in human form.
>
>>Gerry: Or if you understand it as a retelling of Doctor Who or the Daleks.
>>Or any other random idea that
>>is unsupported by the text.
>
> Again with the Daleks. The only one bringing them up is Gerry Quinn.

I bring them up because I think they are more plausible than a lot of the
theories you have been proposing of late.


> Essentially immortal, shapeshifting beings are found in more than one
> Wolfe story.

Possibly so, but you have yet to demonstrate that they are found in 5HoC.


> Your denials do not erase them except in your own mind. Which is okay,
> but how can you hope to erase them from everyone else's mind?  Pretending
> they are Daleks? sheesh. I am not
> getting my ideas from Dr. Who. Gerry. All my ideas are inspired and
> supported BY THE TEXT OF WOLFE BOOKS.

I will take your word for it that they are so inspired.  In cases such as
this - and yesterday's proposal that the spacemen who land at the end of "A
Story" are not French - the alleged support seems highly questionable.

- Gerry Quinn