(urth) On dream travelers

[Roy C. Lackey]

James Wynn quoted and wrote:
> > Severian could tell that Silkhorn wasn't afraid to be locked in a cell
in
> > the Tower, and wondered why. Silkhorn responded: "Because I'm not really
> > here." (RTTW, 263)
>
> A. Yes, but his meaning is not as simple as that, as is obvious in the
> fact that an astral body can bleed to death. When the Rajan said he
> wasn't afraid because "I'm not really here", the following conversation
> takes place:
>
>     [Severian]: "That judge is afraid."
>
>     [Rajan]: "He doesn't know, you see. [...] Or if he does by this
>     time, he may be afraid that my daughter and I will leave him here.
>     As we might."
>
> In the same paragraph that the Rajan says they "aren't really here" he
> speaks of "leaving" Judge Hamer "here".

Yes. What Hamer didn't know was that he wasn't really on Urth. That was the
power Silkhorn held over the judge; the judge's ignorance of the situation.
Hamer was at Silkhorn's mercy. Had Silkhorn stranded Hamer's astral body on
Urth, his natural body on Blue would have eventually died from starvation or
other causes, as Silkhorn had learned from Fava's example of having died of
the cold.

That was the concern Silkhorn had for Jahlee after she went into her long
sleep; if he didn't get her absent spirit back to her natural body, that
natural body would die and her spirit would be stranded on or in whatever
spiritual plain Fava's spirit had gone to.

There are a number of places where Silkhorn says that astral bodies are not
real in the same sense that natural bodies are real. Here is another. The
Maliki of Sinew's village thought Silkhorn, Hide and Jahlee had come there
on a lander, because of Jahlee's clean, red hair. Silkhorn told her, "We are
not real -- not really present in the way you are -- exactly as my son told
you." (IGJ, 367)

> Pure spirit cannot die.

I agree. I don't claim that the astral bodies are pure spirit; they are
obviously not, as the example of Rigoglio I have mentioned more than once
demonstrates. But the essence of the spirit bodies is spiritual, as the case
of Rigoglio also demonstrates.

> On the other hand, let me posit something that I believe is close to
> accurate. Dream-travel involves the formation of an astral body for the
> soul of the traveler. This body is created along the same principles as
> the creations of the weapons and astral-Hide.
> During astral travel, the link between the traveler's soul and his
> corporeal body is the astral body. If the astral body dies, the soul
> cannot return to the corporeal body.

I can go along with that.

> The link between the Rajan's astral body  (or other Neighbor's since I
> suppose it is his Neighbor part that gives the Rajan his special
> abilities)  and his corporeal body is an inhumi.
> The link between normal human dream-travelers and the inhumi is the Rajan.
>

I guess I can go along with that, except for the Neighbor bit.

> > You mean the sleeping body of the dreamer? That's a different situation
from
> > what I said. I am saying that the astral body could not live for long
> > without being powered by something. The mercenaries Silkhorn took to
Green
> > to exterminate the inhumi in the City of the Inhumi ate rations they had
> > carried with them, yet we are told that dream travelers have no
digestive
> > tracts. Obviously eating those rations could not have provided any
> > sustenance. Maybe it constituted comfort food.
>
> B. But I don't see any evidence that the dream-travelers /need/
> sustenance from _any_ apparent source. As you say they don't eat.

I didn't say they don't eat; they obviously can and do, as I said of the
mercenaries and their rations. Still, they have no digestive tracts. I can
only speculate, which I hesitate to do. Perhaps the rations (or any food
eaten by dream travelers) does amount to comfort food. That is, dream
travelers tend to behave as if their astral bodies are the same as their
real bodies. There are exceptions, of course, such as when they walk through
walls and create objects out of nothing.

> Perhaps they received sustenance from some other involuntary method.
> Since the astral bodies can receive harm, even bleed to death, I suppose
> they probably age as well. Do we have any evidence that they can
> successfully heal? The only limitation on their time in dream travel
> seems to be the ability of the *corporeal body* to survive without care.

With that last sentence I quite agree, if by corporeal body you mean their
natural body.

> This is a problem for humans.

And for inhumi. Witness Fava.

[snip of speculation about Neighbors]

> > I don't know what that last sentence is supposed to mean, but solid
bodies
> > cannot walk through the Curtain wall as Silkhorn and Hoof did. Ghosts
and
> > spirits are reputed to be able to do that sort of thing.
>
> D. Yes, certain solid bodies most evidently can. The astral bodies are
> solid. They have mass. They can be damaged by physical objects and when
> they are, they bleed. So they have blood. Presumably they have blood
> vessels. If you doubt they are solid, then I would really like to know
> how you rectify these facts?

I can't explain it, any more than you can explain how bodies that cannot
digest food can continue to produce blood.

[snip]
> >> I disagree. It is not possible that physical weapons would harm a pure
> >> spirit. The spirits in astral travel assume NEW bodies during that
> >> period that operate according alternate unexplained physical laws.

> > Rigoglio's spirit was sure as hell harmed. The spirit body is linked to
the
> > natural body; why else were Rigoglio's hands still tied when he got to
Urth?
> > Some of the mercenaries from Soldo died and were buried on Green but
were
> > alive and mindless on Blue.
> > When Jahlee's astral self got stranded on Green, Silkhorn was able to go
> > back and get her because her body still lived on Blue. After Fava's body
> > died on Blue, he was apparently unable to go back to Green to see her
astral
> > self, but he was able to speak to her through Vadsig and Mora's dreams
on
> > Blue.
>
> G. So what are you arguing here?

That when Fava's natural body died in the snow her spirit, as manifested by
her astral body, lost its tether and became disembodied, which is why
Silkhorn never saw her again.

When Jahlee's spirit was stranded on Green and Silkhorn went back for her,
he gained the top of that cliff and met her. She said, "You came back! I had
given up." (RTTW, 190) Why was she concerned, if she then had her heart's
desire to be fully human, plus lording it over the lowly inhumi? She went on
to say, "We . . . They bring me food I can't eat. Children, and all the
while I know by body's starving up there." (191) True, she no longer had
fangs with which to suck the children's blood, but that didn't matter
because she had no digestive tract anyway, no matter what she ate. Her
spirit body was starving, just as her natural body was starving back on
Blue, and she knew it. When she returned from a spirit warp she immediately
flew off to find human blood to drink, as did Juganu.

(I am loathe to even speculate on why the inhumi who worshipped the
fully-human Jahlee on Green did not drink her blood. Even if you can write
it off to religious awe or something, that would apply only to those inhumi
who had some intelligence due to having previously drank human blood; that
would not apply to the "thousands" of  inhumi said to be "mere animals"
(RTTW, 189) that had swarmed Silkhorn's astral body on the cliff-face, eager
for his blood.)

Silkhorn told Juganu repeatedly that, though he would be tempted to remain
behind on Urth, he would die if he did so. "By going with us to a place
where you will be as human as we are." [...] "And by coming back. You will
be tempted to remain, I warn you; and if you do, you will die and it will be
by no act of mine." (RTTW, 344) See also (397). After laying Cilinia's ghost
Silkhorn said, "We've accomplished the task we set out to do, but the most
difficult part of our trip remains, my son. We must persuade -- or force --
Juganu to return with us." (393-94) In fact, they had to fight Juganu to get
him to return (397), after which he flew away to organize the inhumi on Blue
for the future attack on the wedding party.

Having learned from the example of Fava, Silkhorn admonished both Jahlee and
Juganu that they could not remain in dream travel, though both inhumi liked
it there and wished to remain. Once they had served his use of them, why not
reward them by giving them what they so wanted? Was he just being mean to
them? No, he knew that if their spirits did not return to their respective
natural bodies, those bodies would soon die of starvation or whatever cause,
and when their natural body died they would lose their spirit bodies, as was
the case with Fava.

-Roy