(urth) First Exodus theory revised

[Marc Aramini]

This is the thing, if you can make every event in the dream literally true, it fits.  From dream logic, Kypris-mother-hy-chenille-mamelta.

hy and chenille possessed by kypris CHECK
idea of an heir between pas and kypris to succeed Pas - see silks head on pas at end (idea repeated three times in text) CHECK for kypris as mother
kypris blue eyed, mamelta blue eyed CHECK
kypris likes Hy because she is described as similar in appearance, mamelta described as Hyacinth like CHECK
weird powers of silk that seem geared for leadership CHECK

If Mamelta did NOT resemble Hy, or did not have blue eyes, it wouldn't fit

(also, a bunch of mother feeling near her body)

Pros: explains who every parent is in the vision Tussah, Silk's adopted mother, Pas, Mamelta-Kypris, explains why Silk is important to Kypris, why his face is on Pas, why he is chosen to replace Pas.

Cons:
Why the hell is Mamelta down there if she is kypris? Well, Echidna is hunting for her jilted revenge, maybe Typhon had to get her out of there in a hurry ... but why mindwipe her?  It does say she was not supposed to be awoken at that point, and the seal supposed to be undisturbed for the plan of Pas.  Maybe Kypris WAS supposed to reload into Mamelta's body or something, I don't know.

Your objection is always the same to the idea of Silk as an heir, people would recognize Pas clone, and why would Pas want leadership qualities to take Silk over?  BUT those have NOTHING to do with this idea, I maintain, Silk is JUST a son, not a clone, not meant to be taken over, and this is not from myth, this is purely from the text.

But nothing can convince you, so we should just leave it be.

It does explain why Silk is special, though.

--- On Fri, 2/11/11, Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie> wrote:

> From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
> Subject: Re: (urth) First Exodus theory revised
> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Date: Friday, February 11, 2011, 7:46 AM
> 
> From: "Lee Berman" <severiansola at hotmail.com>
> > 
> >> Gerry Quinn: I really don't agree with this. 
> He has a dream or waking dream in which
> >> images of various women run together (I think
> women he associates with sex
> >> or sexuality).  In this dream he also sees
> the Outsider as a wooden toy, and
> >> a polished tabletop as the sea.  I don't
> think there's any reason to take it
> >> literally that all the women in his dream are the
> same woman, any more than
> >> that the Outsider is a wooden toy.
> > 
> > I can see why Marc has trouble with your theory Gerry.
> As a self-acknowledged mystery
> > writer, Gene Wolfe has a special place in his work for
> dream sequences and
> > stories/myths/legends. I can't see him using a dream
> sequence to reveal something as
> > banal as the fact that Silk is a man and has had
> sexual thoughts about various women.
> > We already knew that. The dream must be there to tell
> us things we don't know.
> 
> So you are saying the Outsider really is a wooden
> toy?  After all, that's what the dream tells us and we
> certainly didn't know it.
> 
> I've re-read the passage containing the dream, and in fact
> it has a very clear and obvious interpretation, which isn't
> really about sex and sexuality although I was heading in the
> right direction. All you have to is read the context. 
> Read just before the dream.  The Outsider is speaking
> to Silk about what would happen if Kypris were killed and
> Thelxeipeia became the goddess of love:
> 
> ***************************************************
> [using quotation marks for italics]
> "I would claim her in that case, long before the end. 
> As I have so many others.  As I am claiming Kypris even
> now because love always proceeds from me, real love, true
> love.  First romance."
> 
> The Outsider was the dancing man on a toy, and the water
> the polished toy-top on which he danced with Kypris, who was
> Hyacinth and Mother, too. "First romance", sang the Outsider
> with the music box.  "First romance".  It was why
> he was called the Outsider.  He was outside -
> [Remora wakes him up]
> ***************************************************
> 
> Isn't it totally obvious what is being said here? 
> Kypris is the goddess of LOVE.  His love for Hyacinth
> and his love for his mother.  Kypris, Hyacinth, Mother
> - they are all aspects of love, which proceeds from the
> Outsider.
> 
> There is absolutely no implication that they are the same
> human personality. In fact the idea is absurd, because we
> know who Silk means by Mother [capitalised] - he means his
> adoptive parent.
> 
> This is confirmed 46 pages later when Silk is buried and
> has a vision of both sets of parents.  Again, his
> adoptive, non-biological mother is called Mother.  The
> other woman does not speak and there is no indication
> whatsoever of any relationship to any other character in the
> story.
> 
> 
> You and Marc have both used the word 'banal' now in
> connection with my interpretations.  What I consider
> banal is cockeyed extrapolation based on random mythological
> or other allusions.  Yes, dreams are important, but not
> to the exclusion of all else, and not to be taken
> literally.  That's the whole *point* of dreams - they
> don't have to be literal!
> 
> 
> > I find pointed significance in the metaphors of the
> wooden toy Outsider and the tabletop
> > sea which presage revelations in Short Sun and hearken
> back to mysteries in BotNS. I
> > would expect revelations of similar importance with
> regard to the women in the dream. I
> > think similar importance can be found in all Wolfean
> dreams, legends and stories.
> 
> Yes, there are important revelations.  The Outsider is
> the God of Love. That's about as important a revelation as
> you might hope for.
> 
> - Gerry Quinn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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