(urth) Pike's ghost

[Lee Berman]

Well, a decent conversation :- )

 

 

>> Well, (hierodules) might choose Severian over Baldanders. Isn't fully clear. 

 

>It’s clear enough – they didn’t take sides in that fight.

 

I'm not so sure. But either way, my judgement of the tone of their conversation

suggests that they really like Severian. Baldanders...not so much. Baldanders

experiments with human bodies. Severian tortures them and cuts their heads off.

They need someone who will be willing to exterminate most of humanity, right?

Kindness is obviously not the criterion which gets you picked to be New Sun.

(devotion and loyalty to the the Increate is more like it)

 

>Do we know of any Biblical angels who supported both sides in a conflict?

 

I don't think Baldanders and Talos are the "other" side in whatever conflict

the hierodules are fighting. They seem to have chosen Severian over Baldanders

as their champion against a greater foe who shall remain unmentioned for now. 

If Baldanders did receive the mermaid's kiss to produce the scars(gills?) on 

his neck and underwater breathing, it might have contributed to his abandonment 

by the hierodules. WOrking with the enemy, even temporarily, isn't such a good 

idea. God/Increate and His agents always know.

 

Anyway, in regard to angels "supporting both sides" let's just say that the Bible 

is a pretty one-sided book as should be expected. If we read the holy texts of 

Hebrew rivals (as Wolfe has) we will find the Bible's demons recognized instead 

as angels and gods. But good or evil, angel or demon, all do God's will. No getting

around that.

 

>I’m not saying the Hierodules are evil, by the way, even in our terms.  I’m just 

>saying that setting them up as “angels”, in order to make a contrast with “demons” 

>like (you are proposing) Father Inire, doesn’t seem to work well given the actual 

>behaviour of both sides.  Inire, it would seem to me, supports the better side on 

>Urth.  If the Hierodules are selling arms to both Commonwealth and Ascians, in an 

>Urth tottering towards extinction, surely we must prefer Inire, who cleaves – 

>against his own best interests – to the Autarch who runs a seemingly more human, 

>if backward, realm, and will in time bring about a New Sun. 

 

I think you are trapped in a modernist sort of stereotype where angels represent some

universal "good" while demons represent universal "evil". How "good" are God's angels

going to appear to Egyptians or Canaanites who suffered massive genocide at their hands?

Do you forget that God Himself did direct massive genocide with His Biblical Flood?

He even killed the innocent animals who didn't make it to the ark, just to cleanse the

earth of human wickedness.

 

Gerry you are not a Christian. Neither am I. But I know enough to know that devout 

Christian  beliefs in "good" and "evil" are not based on human moral judgement but rather

by allegiance to God and faith that all He does is ultimately "good" no matter how bad

it may seem to us now. And when we read a book by Gene WOlfe we reside in the world of a

Creator with devout, scholarly Christian values. This must be understood.

 

Appearances and behavior aside, we can know Hierodules to be angelic because they invoke

the Increate as their master and inspiration. In contrast, Father Inire invokes Helios,

Hyperior, Surya and Savitar. Angels associate with God. Demons with pagan/gnostic deities.

All do God's will of course. But angels do it loyally and willingly.

 

Anyway, WOlfe affirms that the hiero-types (all of them) are angelic beings in the James

Jordan interview. You've got the wings. You've got the superhuman beauty. You've got the 

angelic auras. Whaddya want, halos and harps? ;- )