(urth) Agia's Weapons

[David Stockhoff]

On 12/21/2011 2:00 PM, Lee Berman wrote:
>> Is this your answer to Jerry's question---that the manipulation is intended to kill
>> Severian over and over? if so, what counts/would have counted as success?
>
> Yes, it is my answer but argh! What seems so clear to me is confusing to others. I
> am suggesting that Severian has a power from the Increate which is beyond anything
> that any other character, including Tzadkiel, can possess. Naturally superhuman
> alien beings on Urth are aware of this power and are jealous of it. (contrast with
> B and F who kneel to Severian.

I think Severian does have such a power. I find it hard to describe, but 
here's how I see it. Imagine beings native to cyberspace who possess 
vast powers there, such as avatars in an RPG might. A visitor from the 
meatworld might look on such powers with awe, but the meatperson can do 
things in the meatworld no one can do from cyberspace. Tzadkiel has 
great powers but, just as angels can't triumph over the nonexistent evil 
in themselves but mortals can, Severian's are of a different order---he 
performs miracles in meatspace. Logically, meatpersons are jealous 
(inevitably misunderstanding these powers as mere "upgrades") but 
cyberpersons are not.
>
> The urth-bound aliens would like to have what Severian has.  So, when he is too young
> to understand his own power, they test Severian tempting him in various ways and trying
> to kill him in various ways and presenting him with injured friends and strangers to heal.
>
> They know he won't die from the avern or anything else (though obviously the dupes
> Agia and Agilus don't know that). They just want to see how he will manage to recover
> himself (hence the baboon guy who looks in on Severian as he convalesces). They wonder
> if he will unknowingly resurrect his own grandmother from a lake full of thousands of
> dead bodies. What would happen if he were duped into resurrecting his own former self
> (Apu PUnchau)?  It all started in the past with Ceryx and Zama, imho. When the
> Conciliator disappeared they (not being pawns in time perception) knew he'd be back
> one day, and they were ready and waiting for severian with these tests.
>
> And, yes, of course they failed. They had to. It was written. It would be as if Dionysus
> became aware of this new guy, Jesus coming up and decided to tempt him in the desert
> and make an ally of him or replace him or something like that.

As did Satan and Typhon, yes. But it's hard to see death as a form of 
temptation. Do they seek to discover weakness they can turn to their 
advantage?
>
> And yes, the pagan gods are associated with evil. Not because of simple human morality.
> Humans openly embrace evil as a moral positive during many periods of history. Evil is
> defined as separation from God. Isn't that separation what turned light-bearing Lucifer
> into evil Satan?
>
> Do we know for sure that Dionysus and his Greek precursors and gnostic successors (like
> Abraxas, Azazel etc.) were not, in some sense evil and satanic? Surely no matter what he
> did, Dionysus/Great God Pan/Green Man, etc. could never be as close to God as Jesus, right?
>
>> How might Inire or Hethor derive personal benefit from whatever they find Severian to be,
>> if their desire is immortality?
>
> They are immortal. But they are Urth-bound and separated from the Increate. Humanity may fear
> them and become enthralled by them but they aren't worshipped as true Gods (like Jahweh).
> They know Severian is connected to something higher which they cannot achieve since their
> fall from Grace.
>
>

Understood. What I'm missing is a definition of success for the Plan.