(urth) Gummed-Up Works or Got Lives?

[David Stockhoff]

On 12/17/2011 6:54 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:
> *From:* David Stockhoff <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>
> On 12/16/2011 9:02 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:
>
> > > However, it has no obvious magical or even “magical” powers; the only
> > > time we might ascribe such things to it is when Baldander’s energy
> > > mace is shattered (as is the sword) in striking it. The only
> > > fairy-tale-like element, really, is the sword being there for use at
> > > the right time; and it’s hard to think of any story involving
> > > adventure that such things don’t happen. We might wonder whether
> > > previous Severians got smashed by Baldander’s mace.
> > > It’s a hero’s sword more than a magic sword, IMO.
>
> > No question. It runs against the cliche, but carries it through
> > nevertheless. Just as Elric's sword marks, determines, and hurts and
> > even betrays him, so does Severian's.
> It doesn’t betray him – it is destroyed saving him. But that’s by the by.

Subjective, innit?
>
> > > > And what do you mean, "Dorcas was under no enchantment"? Did you 
> read
> > > > the book?
> > > Yes. To what enchantment do you refer?
> > That which kept her preserved and asleep for some 20 years. (You can
> > argue that this did not happen, and I agree. But then there are two
> > narratives here, aren't there? And one of them is informed by various
> > tales about preserving sleep underground, and women in lakes.)
> That’s a circular argument. “Dorcas is like Sleeping Beauty. Therefore 
> she was under an enchantment, rather than dead. Therefore she is like 
> Sleeping Beauty.”

"Dorcas is like Sleeping Beauty, in that she was apparently under an 
enchantment, rather than dead." There---fixed it.
>
>
> > > > If you don't know fairies live underground, then you know 
> nothing of
> > > > the topic upon which you so boldly discourse.
> > > I know some fairies live underground, as do some men, and some other
> > > creatures. Are you saying that all fairies live underground? 
> Pardon me
> > > if I ask for a reference.
> > Again? Try the Mabinogion.
> You already admitted in another post that fairies can live almost 
> anywhere, depending on the particular complex of legends.

Glad you're keeping up! I never said "all fairies live underground." 
Only the queens do. Quit smoking that stuff.
>
> > > Let us
> > > suppose every story to be a thread in a large multi-dimensional space
> > > of story elements. A couple of points on the thread of Dorcas’s story
> > > lie relatively close to a couple of points on the Sleeping Beauty
> > > thread, where ‘relatively close’ includes ‘dead’ as being close to
> > > ‘under an enchanted sleep’. As I’ve pointed out, we could find many
> > > similarly close threads in all kinds of works; I just mentioned an
> > > example at random.
>
> > You're comparing Buffy to Wolfe? Is there a question?
> Why shouldn’t I? Both Buffy and BotNS are large works that play with 
> elements of many fantasy genres; in that at least they are very alike. 
> They are similar in that you can find episodes that are weakly like 
> Sleeping Beauty, but not strongly so – I don’t recall any strong SB 
> reference in Buffy either, though I could have forgotten or missed 
> one. The point is that any such work will have threads passing near to 
> points in a very large volume of story space, and therefore the fact 
> that a thread passes near a point is not in itself of much significance.

I didn't say you shouldn't, at all. But you may want to keep your own 
standards in mind. What have you enhanced here? How many times will you 
state the obvious before you realize there's no prize for it?
>
> > > We could even find more examples in BotNS! Does Valeria not also have
> > > some correspondences to Sleeping Beauty? And what about Typhon? Shall
> > > I waffle on about how in the Typhon scene Wolfe mashes up Sleeping
> > > Beauty and Beauty and the Beast, with Severian taking the part of the
> > > Prince in the former and Beauty in the latter?
>
> > Now you're getting it! Yes, Valeria is a princess in a tower. Typhon is
> > a king sleeping under a mountain. But these don't quite work, do they?
> No more than Dorcas quite works.

Exactly!
>
> > Hmm. Hmm. Maybe they aren't supposed to, quite. But given how little we
> > know of Valeria, it's a sound pattern if not a solid data point.
> > Whatever could it mean?
> For me, three Sleeping Beauties, none of which quite work, means the 
> Sleeping Beauty detector is oversensitive and yielding false positives.


Of course it does. Because you appear to be a human Geiger counter.