(urth) Wolfe as Heretic

Wed May 19 17:39:22 PDT 2010

I don't see Aa Gabriel (by the theory) as issuing a challenge, but as
fulfilling the duties of his office.

Does not the conversation run more or less like this?:

God: Have you seen Job? He's pretty good.

AaG: Not as good as you think: He's good because you treat him well.

It's a stretch to see what follows as a challenge on Satan's part.

.

> The term haSatan (The Accuser) is the title of an office.
>
> In esoteric Judaism, you learn that this office is filled, aeon after
> aeon, by various archangels, and that the archangel who was filling the
> office in Job's time and is still fulfilling it in ours is Gabriel.
>
> He performs this office twice that is recorded in the Bible, and of course
> he performs this office every day. The two times in the Bible his client
> is Job on the one hand and Jesus on the other.
>
> Christians of various stripes and types have various other ideas which
> they take from the common religion, or the religion of the World, or
> Zoroastrianism or whatever.
>
> This is all discussed in the various Mishnahs and Talmuds and so on,
> copies of which I need to obtain at some point.
>
> .
>
>
>> The term "Satan" means accuser, and in most texts, the angel known as
>> "Satan" (which can be a term of office as well as name, acts as "God's
>> prosecutor," seeking to tempt man into sin.  Consider the book of Job:
>>  Satan is given free reign to walk into heaven and make a challenge to
>> God, basically betting on Job's life.  God ultimately wins (Job is
>> found righteous through his trial) but it is Satan that puts him to
>> the test.
>>
>> A lot of this gets obscured throughout the ages as words and terms are
>> translated and Christianity begins to piggyback onto folk beliefs,
>> plus every two-bit occultist throughout history who has muddied the
>> waters with their ravings.  The difference between an Anton LaVey and
>> a more "respectable" occultist like Albertus Magnus is one of age, not
>> necessarily credibility.
>>
>> As I understand Catholic doctrine (again, not a Catholic myself), none
>> of the angels that fell with Lucifer are able to take action directly
>> against humans, because like all angels, they lack independent will.
>> However, they are able to tempt humans and humans are free to enter
>> into exchanges with them for supernatural efficacy, e.g., spells or
>> magic.
>>
>> LH
>>
>> On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 6:26 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>> Satan works for the Management.
>>>
>>> You're not supposed to have to do with him: better, if you are lucky he
>>> won't have anything to do with you. You hope he doesn't have to do with
>>> you.
>>>
>>> When he thinks someone is doing really well, he brings him to God's
>>> attention. Everything after that is on God. God can choose not do test
>>> you, and presumably does occasionally, since good people do ocasionally
>>> do
>>> well without the kinds of ups and downs Job had.
>>>
>>> It is not ever good to come to the attention of the powerful.
>>>
>>> But if you have to do with him professionally, or in the course of your
>>> business, it's not necessarily a huge deal. It all depends on your
>>> atttitude.
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Remember also that the several writers of Biblical texts came from
>>>>> different stages along the evolution of the native Hebrew religion
>>>>> from one essentially indistinguishable from the general polytheism of
>>>>> the region to one of henotheism (in essence, a cult of Yahweh) to one
>>>>> of monotheism.  The work of the scholars and priests of Judaism has
>>>>> been to change the religion.  This could be a side effect of
>>>>> standardization of practice and teachings, in essence, organizing the
>>>>> religion from its tribal roots to one practiced by a priestly caste
>>>>> and promulgated through the use of standard texts and "orthodox"
>>>>> theology.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Bible (as well as early Church teachings based on it) represents
>>>>> the cultural, social and theological evolution of a people.
>>>>>
>>>>> LH
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Urth Mailing List
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>>>>
>>>> That's one theory, certainly, but it's not uncontroversial even among
>>>> comparative religionists.  Judaism was constantly cheek-by-jowl with
>>>> paganism, and there was a constant struggle to keep it free of the
>>>> religious
>>>> observances of "the nations".  There is an observable change from the
>>>> Pentateuch's language concerning other gods (what Max Mueller termed
>>>> "henotheistic") to that of the later Writings and Prophets, but that
>>>> may
>>>> not
>>>> be as significant as Mueller thought it was.  And Mueller himself was
>>>> far
>>>> from an objective observer, since his teleology leads ultimately to a
>>>> non-personal, transcendent God which is inseparable from
>>>> Nature--familiar
>>>> to
>>>> those who have read widely in late 19th-century liberal Christianity.
>>>>
>>>> I will grumpily admit, however, that "henotheism" is a useful word.
>>>>
>>>> Just a brief comment on Antonio's point earlier : The position of the
>>>> Vatican, as far as I'm aware, is that Satan indeed has objective
>>>> existence,
>>>> and power to tempt humanity.  Magic has always been forbidden (despite
>>>> Renaissance speculations and hair-splitting), not because it doesn't
>>>> work,
>>>> but because one petitions the wrong forces in using it.  In James
>>>> Blish's
>>>> excellent novel *The Day After Judgment*, the black magician Theron
>>>> Ware
>>>> upbraids a Dominican who practices ritual magic and divination by
>>>> saying
>>>> something like "There is no such thing as 'white magic'.  It is all
>>>> black,
>>>> black, black as the ace of spades."  That's the official RC position
>>>> as
>>>> near
>>>> as I can figure, and although to believe in the efficacy of sorcery
>>>> might
>>>> be
>>>> old-fashioned, it ain't heretical.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt +
>>>>
>>>> I feel again a spark of that ancient flame.
>>>> Virgil [Publius Vergilius Maro] (70-19 B.C.), Aeneid, bk. IV, l. 23
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