(urth) Allegory

[John Watkins]

It's a fable.  If every work that used a journey as a metaphor for death was
deemed an allegory, the word would be stretched out of meaning.

On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 1:15 AM, Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com> wrote:

>  Of course it's an allegory...just a "good" one. Even Tolkien broke his
> own rules: what is "Leaf by Niggle" if not an allegory?
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
>
> *To:* The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
> *Sent:* Sat, June 5, 2010 11:53:32 PM
> *Subject:* Re: (urth) Allegory
>
> I rather doubt that Tolkien considered The Pearl to be an allegory.  He
> took the time to translate it, after all.
>
> On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 11:03 PM, Jack Smith <jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> "But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always
>> have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence.  I
>> much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the
>> thought and experience of readers.  I think that  many confuse
>> 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the
>> reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author."  --Tolkien,
>> Foreword to  The Lord of the Rings
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Jack
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 10:39 PM, Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I think it's important to remember that Tolkien was a scholar of ancient
>>> languages who also had to spend plenty of time teaching medieval literature.
>>> Apparently, his colleagues say that his reaction to "allegory" was
>>> specifically targeted against the strain of _Piers Plowman_/_Confessio
>>> Amantis_ brand that was part of his teaching duties and which he was of
>>> course familiar with. (I'm getting this from my memory of _The Inklings_ and
>>> other stuff from his letters.)
>>>
>>> To the point: what bothered him about allegory was what it did to
>>> mythology and romance in the middle ages, such as removing it from its
>>> original context and placing a veneer of teaching or instruction over it.
>>> But Tolkien himself was not averse to literature-with-an-overt "message," if
>>> that's what we mean by allegory. The Eddas, Beowulf, even the Bible, all of
>>> which he loved for their mythic status, are generally "allegorical" but not
>>> allegorical in the same way that _The Romance of the Rose_ or _The Pearl_ is
>>> allegorical. They model a way of living, a mindset, an idealized culture,
>>> etc., but they aren't allegorical in the reductive way that _Pilgrim's
>>> Progress_ has walking personifications and where meanings can be decoded in
>>> a this-means-that relationship.
>>>
>>> They also aren't topically allegorical, and of course Tolkien hated the
>>> idea that LotR was sometimes received as a big anti-Germany "allegory." I
>>> think Tolkien was fine with the general idea that his books could be thought
>>> of as contributing to thinking about certain situations like that -- after
>>> all, what use is myth if it doesn't try to define our outlook? But he
>>> resisted the idea that his books were allegory if that meant that you say
>>> "Sauron is Hitler" and walk away thinking you solved the puzzle.
>>>
>>> Relation to Wolfe? I've always put New Sun in the same category as
>>> Spenser's _Faerie Queene_, which is a very non-reductive allegory that uses
>>> its symbols to create interesting ambiguities rather than just reduce an
>>> icon to a static meaning. New Sun's imagery often works the same way for me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
>>> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>>> Sent: Sat, June 5, 2010 9:14:12 PM
>>> Subject: Re: (urth) traveling north
>>>
>>> On 6/5/2010 7:34 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>> > He'd whine loudly.
>>>
>>> In the interview he said he disliked allegory wherever he smelled it. But
>>> that didn't stop him from producing some, however unintentionally.
>>>
>>> -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
>>> IEEE Student Chapter Blog at
>>> < http://ieeetamut.org/ >
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best wishes,
>> Jack
>>
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>
>
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