(urth) traveling north

[brunians at brunians.org]

The Commonwealth is politically similar - identical, really - to the
Byzantine empire.

> First of all many many apologies if I have started a hare and then not
> been around to follow it up. it is a classic troll tactic and I am not a
> troll (although stating you are not is also a classic tactic of course,
> right now I know I can't win). Instead color me guilty of not thinking
> (ie. that I was on 3 12 hour shifts immediately following my last post)
> before posting. Will try very hard not to do this again.
>
> Second: many many thanks to all those who have responded. I see that my
> 15 years out of the fandom have resulted in some serious lacunae in my
> knowledge; I had not previously been aware of Gene Wolfe's statements on
> the issue of north/south on Urth and also of the identity of the Ascians.
>
> [As an aside though - I wonder very much now why Wolfe initially
> identifies the Ascians as his 'equivalent of the Turks'. Turks of what
> era? I'm guessing ancient, warlike, sweeping across the plains Turks,
> not the inhabitants of the modern land of Turkey who are not well known
> for Ascian-like behavior.
>
> The real  puzzle for me in this identification however is their evident
> totalitarian mentality, how this relates to the Turks of any era I am
> not sure.]
>
> Anyway - I finally remembered the other place (well actually one of the
> others, but this is the most immediate one) where my vague recollection
> of a sense of north/south 'wrongness' came from.
>
> The passage is right at the end of *Shadow*; on the last but one page of
> my Arrow Paperbacks copy (p.300 of the 1981 printing). The speaker is
> Jonas.
>
> "In the old times, the Lords of this world feared no one but their own
> people, and to defend themselves against them built a great fortress on
> a hill to the *north* of the city. It was not called Nessus then,
> because the river was unpoisoned.
>
> "Many of the people were angry at the building of that *citadel*,
> holding it to be their right to slay their lords without hindrance if
> they so desired. But others went out in the ships that ply between the
> stars, returning with treasure and knowledge."
>
> [All emphases mine of course. Also of course, the Citadel where Severian
> was raised is in the far *south* of 'contemporary' Nessus.]
>
> And so on. Of course at this point Jonas diverges into a tale which
> sounds like a fairy-story or legend, and it's entirely possible that the
> whole statement is such a tale, that the reference to the 'citadel in
> the north' is storytelling, and not related to the (subcreated)
> 'reality' of Urth. But Jonas is a survivor of ancient times and at base
> a machine, not a human; this is in addition 'the only tale (he) knows -
> or nearly so'. Do robots tell fairy stories?
>
> In Wolfe, they probably do :) However this entire passage gives me  pause.
>
> If I remember / note anything else, I'll present it if the whole list
> hasn't gotten tired of the subject; but any comment as helpful as those
> already received would be very very welcome.
>
> kind regards
>
> JD
>
>
> On 03/06/10 01:34, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> I will tell you the directions don't exclude that possibility.
>>
>> The line is, "Try to pass through it by day, with the sun over the right
>> shoulder by morning and later in the left eye."
>>
>> On the equinoxes, the sun rises due east everywhere in the world (well,
>> not at the poles), so the sun is over your right shoulder at dawn if
>> you're facing northwest.  On the December solstice, the sun rises at its
>> farthest south of due east; on the June solstice, at its farthest north.
>>  In the South Temperate and Antarctic Zones, the sun is always in the
>> north at noon, but in the South Tropical Zone, it's in the south at noon
>> around the December solstice, their summer solstice.  Since Severian's
>> sun is dim, he could be in the tropics even where we think of the
>> climate as cooler than tropical.
>>
>> It's quite clear the Commonwealth is in the Southern Hemisphere: the
>> south is cold and the north is hot.  I don't see a mistake.  The sun
>> could easily be more or less east (over Sev's right shoulder) in the
>> morning and more or less west (in his left eye) later.
>>
>> Jerry Friedman
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Jane Delawney<jane_delawney at sky.com>
>> To: The Urth Mailing List<urth at lists.urth.net>
>> Sent: Wed, June 2, 2010 5:09:59 PM
>> Subject: Re: (urth) traveling north
>>
>> and a quick follow up (told you it was late at night, thinking things
>> through ...)
>>
>> Of course it isn't possible to travel toward the equator in *either*
>> hemisphere with the sun at your back. So something very complicated
>> appears to have happened to the earth's orbit, the position of the
>> continents, or both.
>>
>> Also awaiting comments from those who will probably tell me that the
>> directions given do not in fact exclude the possibility that the sun was
>> in Sev's face during the rest of the day. I'm sure there are other
>> indications that Urth's north and south are not quite as we know them -
>> but no time to go there now.
>>
>> got to go!
>>
>> jd
>>
>
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