(urth) Is Agia a Robot?
David Stockhoff
dstockhoff at verizon.net
Sat Jun 19 06:45:16 PDT 2010
That makes some sense. It jives with the Kim Lee Soong group in the
Antechamber. It explains the ninja weapons. It's simple.
It doesn't explain the eye color change, though perhaps that is such a
minor alteration as to allow us to jettison the "facedancer" technology
(she never changes gender either), except for one point. How does she
resemble Agilus so closely? Is that just Severian's inability to
distinguish Asians? Or is Agilus fresh off the ship too, and Nessus has
not seen his kind for millennia? Why do they not have Asian names?
Who made her? How is she so light and yet so strong? Are those common
sex-doll specs?
brunians at brunians.org wrote:
> When has an assassin robot been mentioned?
>
> According to Jonas, his ship had a Korean (or Chinese?) name.
>
> Agia is an oriental robot.
>
> .
>
>
>> Doll vs assassin? It's a minor point.
>>
>> I suppose it's easier to propose a sex doll without a motive for it than
>> to propose an assassin doll without a motive for it. Or maybe not.
>>
>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>
>>> Except for your second to last paragraph, which I need to go over again,
>>> I
>>> am on the same page as you.
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Let me add a point or two to address Roy's observations.
>>>>
>>>> (9) Agia is literally holy, in that she is a Heirodule, directly
>>>> created
>>>> by the gods.
>>>>
>>>> (10) As an assassin, she is the anti-Ossipago. If you gave Ossipago a
>>>> shove, I bet you'd hear the mason's hammer striking stone. There's no
>>>> reason to compare her to chems, creations of Typhon.
>>>>
>>>> There bound to be some misses here, but this theory uses known
>>>> principles to predict what we know we don't know. It draws from
>>>> plentiful pulp and SF cliches, including some playful ones, and
>>>> directly
>>>> relates to the gnostic themes of TBotNS. It uses the sacred incest
>>>> central to gnosticism/alchemy and explains why Agia and Agilus are
>>>> twins, and confirms the significance of Severian's incestuous
>>>> tendencies. It explains why Agia, obviously an extremely important
>>>> character, is so important. It even explains why she is an Asian hottie
>>>> ninja, a fact Lexicon Urthis overlooks. It identifies the doll in the
>>>> box and explains her purple eyes and Agia's brown ones. It relies
>>>> heavily on Wolfe's near-obsession with robots and half-humans, and ties
>>>> in with the theme of base matter trapped in a subcreation searching for
>>>> godhead and the next universe. It almost completely disregards
>>>> established differences between robots and humans, because what matters
>>>> in religion is the soul. It's a thoroughly Wolfean scheme.
>>>>
>>>> Let me know if there's anything it doesn't explain.
>>>>
>>>> Also, after looking back a bit, I think Agia was made primarily as an
>>>> assassin, not as a sex toy. Hethor made a toy of her, and she is
>>>> capable
>>>> of sex because she is an assassin, not the reverse. If this and the
>>>> above are true, then there was probably never a chance of A&A being
>>>> Tested; that was just speculation anyway. It's difficult to see the
>>>> gods' motives in creating her and too easy to make wild guesses.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if it was Severian's own light that was the source of the
>>>> aureole around A&A.
>>>>
>>>> David Stockhoff wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to himself,
>>>>> but it makes some sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> (1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin
>>>>> sister in Love.
>>>>>
>>>>> (2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy (her
>>>>> name; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic.
>>>>>
>>>>> (3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian in
>>>>> many ways. Together they represent a different path for the universe,
>>>>> one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new
>>>>> hope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in
>>>>> Agilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and pseudoincestuous
>>>>> love. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click.
>>>>>
>>>>> (4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite with
>>>>> his sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man.
>>>>>
>>>>> (5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll ninja
>>>>> on the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes
>>>>> it fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the
>>>>> facedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is specialized
>>>>> for sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his
>>>>> powers; he probably acquired her through his powers.
>>>>>
>>>>> (6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her. She
>>>>> met Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She
>>>>> awakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but now
>>>>> she is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what she
>>>>> can become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of
>>>>> this.)
>>>>>
>>>>> (7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an
>>>>> assassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the world
>>>>> to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call it
>>>>> AEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of
>>>>> Severian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus.
>>>>>
>>>>> It may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it
>>>>> doesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that
>>>>> robots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil
>>>>> regardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be
>>>>> god, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more
>>>>> of a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic
>>>>> Christ figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies.
>>>>>
>>>>> How cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even
>>>>> had a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules created?
>>>>> Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were
>>>>> truly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less
>>>>> happen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the excellent
>>>>> question, "So what if Agia is a robot?"
>>>>>
>>>>> (8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns
>>>>> spiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just
>>>>> that he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is
>>>>> beheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to
>>>>> kill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the
>>>>> Commonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the
>>>>> Ascians, "once she sees them." She's not one of them at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> I retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler
>>>>> or that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not
>>>>> human.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ryan Dunn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over
>>>>>> Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is
>>>>>> just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are
>>>>>> to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or
>>>>>> simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't hate the idea, it just bugs me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...ryan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes
>>>>>>> even more important to explain what changed her.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no
>>>>>>> Pinocchio.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings *now*.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> She is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to
>>>>>>>>> Severian.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Adam Thornton wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that
>>>>>>>>>>> Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show
>>>>>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>>>>>> his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling
>>>>>>>>>> Agia's
>>>>>>>>>> strings.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Adam
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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