(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head

David Stockhoff dstockhoff at verizon.net
Tue Jul 13 11:39:42 PDT 2010


That's certainly my feeling.

brunians at brunians.org wrote:
> Many protestants use their religion in ways not incompatible with reality.
>
> Many is perhaps a strong word, but they do exist.
>
> That your father-in-law is one is not beyond the bounds of possibility.
>
> .
>
>
>   
>> My father-in-law is a Protestant, of course. (broad wink)
>>
>> I'd turn him on to Wolfe but I fear the result. He might stop reading
>> altogether.
>>
>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>     
>>> The World is as it is.
>>>
>>> Religion - real religion - acknowledges this.
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>>>> My father-in-law, who eschews SF because it lacks hope with a capital
>>>> (C)H(RIST), would agree with you.
>>>>
>>>> I disagree. As a Catholic acquaintance once said to me, "Catholicism is
>>>> not supposed to be easy." If you take it seriously, it acknowledges the
>>>> most horrifying pain of existence and tries to justify it. I respect
>>>> that.
>>>>
>>>> BotNS has a perpetual subtext of violence and injustice. You could
>>>> trace
>>>> every chapter and scene simply by the violence done or attempted by one
>>>> human being to/on another. There is a purpose to this subtext.
>>>>
>>>> Lee Berman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> John Watkins:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>>>> I don't think so...I think the black hole in the Sun exists as a
>>>>>> white
>>>>>> fountain
>>>>>> in the lower universe (Abbadon?)   It would follow that the white
>>>>>> fountain Severian
>>>>>> creates exists as a black hole in Yesod or some higher plane.  There
>>>>>> may be an
>>>>>> incredible number oflayers of universes...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>> Nice post John. My thinking has leaned in the same direction, heavily
>>>>> influenced
>>>>> by the (surprisingly) hard SF, (shockingly) foresighted 1972 book, The
>>>>> Gods Themselves,
>>>>> by Asimov. I don't feel it is considered a very seminal work though it
>>>>> did win the Hugo
>>>>> and Nebula.  Surely Wolfe read it?
>>>>>
>>>>> It paints a very similar picture of the universes leaking from higher
>>>>> energy to lower
>>>>> which might clarify things in BotNS. As you say, Severian's (and
>>>>> Apheta's?) creation
>>>>> was a White Fountain in Briah. But it was a black hole they created in
>>>>> Yesod
>>>>> (no snarky comments please). Was Yesod (or maybe Sol) left with a
>>>>> black
>>>>> hole that they
>>>>> will need to repair?
>>>>>
>>>>> We have heard the black hole in Urth's sun was created as a
>>>>> punishment.
>>>>> But could we
>>>>> infer that it (also) was created when a nastier version of Severian
>>>>> travelled to Briah
>>>>> to get a white fountain to bring back and heal the black hole for a
>>>>> nastier version of
>>>>> Urth in Abbadon?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Metaphorically (and maybe literally), I think Wolfe is making a point
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> grace...God, being the well that never goes dry, can give without
>>>>>> taking... et cetera.
>>>>>> These points would be lost, or their effectiveness reduced, if the
>>>>>> white fountain and
>>>>>> the black hole were one and the same.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>> Wolfe is usually portrayed as a devout Catholic but, given his
>>>>> writing,
>>>>> I have serious
>>>>> doubts whether he has the same view of grace and the "God Is Love"
>>>>> stuff
>>>>> that most
>>>>> Christians have or are supposed to have. He really seems to have a
>>>>> dark
>>>>> and pessimistic
>>>>> side which comes out in pretty much all his work. Where, in his work,
>>>>> is
>>>>> the shining,
>>>>> uncompromised  redemption we must (as christians) eventually, somehow
>>>>> achieve? Is he
>>>>> saving that for his last novel maybe?
>>>>>
>>>>> In a way I hope so. But I doubt Gene Wolfe's worldview is likely to
>>>>> become more
>>>>> positive as he nears death. Tzadkiel, who is so much more spiritually
>>>>> advanced than
>>>>> Severian, is still infinitely far from the Increate. I suspect a soul
>>>>> will have to pass
>>>>> through an eternity of incarnations before becoming one with God, in
>>>>> the
>>>>> Wolfean cosmos.
>>>>> And that is dark, pessimistic and depressing.
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>>>>>           
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